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    TAB, I agree with everything in your first paragraph. I remain thinking that Labour front bench pushing for a referendum makes it less likely to happen. Only May can stop Brexit now. Parliament can't force her to extend or revoke. Will she revoke if it is Corbyn's position? Very unlikely. Will she revoke if a cross bench parliamentary alliance is pushing for it and the only alternative is no deal? Conceivably.

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      But the EU is only going to grant you moderately lengthy extension to hold a referendum, or a short one to push through a withdrawal agreement when there is a high probability that it will pass. The only way to build a cross party alliance for a second referendum is for the labour party to stop opposing it, and stop forcing people who want one to toe the current super-stupid party line.

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        Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
        Juncker quite frankly tells May that any discussion on the backstop requires a permanent customs union.
        That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesn’t exist, right?

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          Labour aren't opposing it though. They are supporting all the backbench bills that lead towards it. They just (have some people) say they oppose it.

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            And again, I don't see how you square your "Tories don't give a shit about anything but power and screwing the poor" with "all that is required for a cross party alliance is Corbyn to lead it".

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              I'm not necessarily demanding he leads it. He just has to stop opposing it. He can remain as mute and inert as he fucking likes. It would be mental if he were to start pushing it on any other grounds than "This is the only way out of this shit fest."

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                Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post


                That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesn’t exist, right?
                It is understood that one solution discussed by senior officials would be for the backstop to be downgraded to be Northern Ireland specific, as was originally proposed by the EU, should there be a commitment from the British government to negotiate a permanent customs union with the whole of the UK.

                This is not what Labour want. Labour want the customs union to be in this agreement. That's not on offer.

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                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post


                  That would be the Labour Brexit unicorn that we are constantly being told doesn’t exist, right?
                  No, the unicorn is making a customs union conditional on joint decision making over trade deals, and linking the "relationship with the single market" to freedom of movement.

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                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                    I'm not necessarily demanding he leads it. He just has to stop opposing it. He can remain as mute and inert as he fucking likes.
                    But that's exactly what he is doing.

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                      He isn't. He and his close associates keep popping up with stuff pouring water on a referendum. I don't think this means all that much difference though now.

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                        Sure some associates are more sceptical than others, but some are more positive than others, notably McDonnell. Again, it's about trying to walk the tightrope of avoid antagonising Brexiters while keeping Remainers onside. The policy remains the same, that a referendum isn't ruled out.

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                          Well that's going to be a neat trick to sustain. It sounds like a perfectly sensible path forward to me and not like an episode of Father Ted. Why not try to explain to the brexiteers that this is going to be the end of their world. It's hard to see how the UK is going to be able to keep its absurd pension escalator, or NHS if they leave the customs union.

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                            Corbyn wouldn't even say whether Labour would support Remain in a referendum last month. That's a bit more than sceptical. That's him personally putting another barrier in the way.

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                              It's very difficult to sustain of course. Almost as difficult to sustain as the Tories pretending to be the party of sound governance and economic competence while havering between shooting the country in the foot and the head. Labour just need to hope that the Tories implode first. There are plenty of people out there telling Brexiters about how terrible it's going to be. I honestly don't think the Labour front bench doing the same thing is going to help. They have (with the sole exception of Williamson, I think) been telling everyone that No Deal will be bloody awful, but it doesn't seem to have shaken support for no deal. These people aren't listening, and telling people they are wrong and stupid or foolish dupes has never been a strong persuasion tool.

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                                Hmm, on its own I can see why you might wish to avoid being tied down to a hypothetical about a hypothetical, but it's only a hypothetical about a hypothetical because the Labour party still clings to its bullshit position.

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                                  The Tories don’t really have to sustain anything. Their new leader will be offered up as a change candidate.

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                                    Why not try to explain to the brexiteers that this is going to be the end of their world. It's hard to see how the UK is going to be able to keep its absurd pension escalator, or NHS if they leave the customs union.
                                    Because they don't care or don't believe it. Experts and project fear, innit? There's genuinely no talking to the fuckers. Believe me, I've tried.

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                                      Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                                      The Tories don’t really have to sustain anything. Their new leader will be offered up as a change candidate.
                                      Yeah, so was Iain Duncan Smith.

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                                        Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                                        Because they don't care or don't believe it. Experts and project fear, innit? There's genuinely no talking to the fuckers. Believe me, I've tried.
                                        well you can only try. Some will understand, and go along with you, particularly if you point out that they're blaming the EU for the actions of the tories, Sure some of them aren't going to be convinced, and they may never vote for you again, and you just have to have the bravery to say fuck them. Any broad church party with people who think like this is only going to be a coalition of shit.

                                        Most people just want this bullshit to stop, and the only way for it to ever end is a referendum that results in staying. Sure it might be hell for six months, but then it would be over. The govt will be able to do something other than cunt on pointlessly about brexit.

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                                          Originally posted by Etienne View Post

                                          Yeah, so was Iain Duncan Smith.
                                          then they realised that there was things in their fridge with more intelligence and awareness than him, and they decided that even Michael fucking howard was a better bet.

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                                            Sure, I just wanted it clear that a change doesn't necessarily produce a good result for the Tories. They were perilously close to getting Leadsom last time.

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                                              You can't beat a bit of martial law during a no-deal Brexit:

                                              http://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1089282356475760640/photo/1

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                                                Eh!

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                                                  I think he meant to link to the second tweet in the feed.

                                                  https://twitter.com/alanbell_libsol/status/1089299646881636354

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                                                    Ah. Thanks.

                                                    All nonsense, of course.

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