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    Oh hang on, do you mean at some point in the future, if there was a "Labour customs union", which I thought was impossible but never mind, the EU negotiators could make a deal which would have negative effects on things which a Labour government wouldn't want there to be negative effects on, but in your scenario which isn't Labour's the Labour government would have already signed up to anything and everything for all time?

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      Yeah.

      I haven't seen anybody say they think the Labour policy of a customs union with a proper say is available. I'm assuming that we join the Customs Union anyway to protect supply chains. So that would leave us exposed.

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        I'm not sure it really works as a gotcha.

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          The Weatherspoons staff have finally revolted:

          http://twitter.com/SpoonsWorkers/status/1089562916586745857

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            I just dont see any intermediate positions working. I've shifted on this, used to think that customs union worked because nobody who voted Labour cared about making hubristic Liam Fox trade deals. But I think you have to care about them being made without your say.

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              Originally posted by TonTon View Post
              I'm not sure it really works as a gotcha.
              What would Labour do if it's position on customs is turned down? They'd have to join the CU anyway, wouldn't they?

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                I've no idea what anyone is going to do. I'm just not sure of the point of making up scenarios where the thing you've already said can't happen can't happen, and then going "see it can't happen".

                You and Berbs between you are doing more to push me to defend / support the fucking awful Corbyn than anything or anyone else, by the way.

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                  I'm criticising the existing policy and what the fall back would likely be.

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                    https://twitter.com/xtophercook/status/1089611022242115587

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                      It's more like making a claim on an unspecified throne and then demanding other countries recognise your claim.

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                        So a European riff on the Monroe Doctrine, then.

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                          I know a lot of the Tories are really fucking stupid, But They've obviously done their numbers and think this strategy has, at least an outside chance. Robbie Gibb is cunning and very well l connected so I imagine the BBC are (still) onside.So Labour Party activists and whichever of the FBPE?people's vote crowd who are prepared to get the Vote out are all that we've got left. Hold your nose, Tubby, and get canvassing.

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                            I'm not sure I should be canvassing given the reaction TonTon had to me. But I respect those who do, a lot.

                            There might be 2 days news cycle in this nonsense. Is there a strategy beyond that? I'm surprised May explicitly knocked back the "Gatt Article 24 10 years" rubbish. Could have got a day's worth of news out of that, I expect.

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                              Journalism as essay crisis. Then again, Cameron ran Downing Street as an essay crisis, so why shouldn't Delingpole do things that way? By a happy coincidence, learning about the subject confirms what he thought anyway, apparently- not clicking on Breitbart myself.

                              https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1089643877340991490

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                                Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                                Mate, I think you've massively underestimated just how badly collective insanity has taken hold over here. It doesn't matter what facts are deployed. It's way beyond that. And it's genuinely terrifying. Positions are that entrenched that if you told a die hard Brexiter that your jeans are blue they'd argue they were pink. While looking at your blue jeans.
                                This isn't going to end well whatever happens. However the constant banging on about Labour is infuriating, because they have no power or control over this. And it diverts attention away from where the real problem is.
                                Yeah, well you have to give it a go to peel off the ones who voted to give Osborne a kicking, and you simply have to forget about the rest. The Thing is that there is nothing that the Labour Party can do to make those people happy, because they can't be made happy, and you can't try and triangulate them into your base, because they are so fucking far removed from what your party is supposed to be about, that any attempt to do so will prevent you from achieving anything and simply alienate the rest of your base. It's the same category of mistake as the migration mug.

                                The Banging on about Labour is happening because they are the only ones who can do anything. We get the that the Tories and most of the political bubble have lost their fucking minds, but the only way that the whole thing can remain so completely and utterly disconnected from external reality is that Labour insist on playing along by operating on their own plane of reality. We're eight weeks away from Brexit and labour are still talking about a special relationship with the single market.

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                                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                  The people campaigning for a second referendum have done the following in the last few days.
                                  • Trashed the Norway+ option which is the most sane Brexit
                                  • Managed to get a grand total of 71 Labour MPs to support a second referendum
                                  • Publically said hey would not support a Labour amendment for a second referendum
                                  • Announced that they would have tabled their own amendment for a second referendum but won’t because Corbyn
                                  So forgive me if I’m giving them short shrift for being either liars or utterly incompetent. But despite everyone’s efforts it isnt the Labour leadership who are fucking over those who want a second referendum.
                                  Do you have a link for that second last item in the list. All I could find about it was This, but that may say more about my googling than anything else. This doesn't really say that they were opposed to Labour's ideas for a second referendum, but that they wouldn't waste time discussing Labour's policy which is pretty fucking out there. You can't have a strong relationship with the Single Market. Either you are in it, or you

                                  The party’s alternative Brexit plan, which would be the subject of a separate vote if the amendment were carried, proposes that the UK remain in a post-Brexit customs union with the European Union and have a strong relationship with the single market. Citizens’ rights and consumer standards would be harmonised with the EU’s.

                                  Corbyn said: “Our amendment will allow MPs to vote on options to end this Brexit deadlock and prevent the chaos of a no-deal. It is time for Labour’s alternative plan to take centre stage, while keeping all options on the table, including the option of a public vote.”


                                  The thing about the Norway+ option is that it's complete nonsense. The + part can fuck right off, because that's not how these things work. But Ultimately Going for a Norway style brexit means you haven't actually really left the EU at all in any real sense. You've just decided that you don't want a vote any more. It is actually being ruled without having a say, rather than merely thinking you don't have a major say.

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                                    What I don't get is that there was a lot of commentary at the time about people who never usually voted but turned up to vote in the referendum. So why are the politicians so scared about upsetting people who likely wouldn't bother to vote in the next general election anyway?

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                                      Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post


                                      The thing about the Norway+ option is that it's complete nonsense. The + part can fuck right off, because that's not how these things work. But Ultimately Going for a Norway style brexit means you haven't actually really left the EU at all in any real sense. You've just decided that you don't want a vote any more. It is actually being ruled without having a say, rather than merely thinking you don't have a major say.
                                      Indeed. I think that, for some that support Labour's strategy, this is the aim - 'we have to leave, but let's get the best we can for now, and reapply in a few years time'.

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                                        You do realise that many of us think having no influence in the EU whilst subject to their rules is actually the best outcome for us and the EU? That way, we don't get set adrift on Daily Mail Island, and you don't get us dragging our feet over every fucking regulatory proposal.

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                                          That's a very good point; I mentioned some pages ago that the best 'Lexit' case I've heard was a fella who was a complete and utter Europhile, and thinks that we've been buggering up/dragging down the - as he saw it - very noble and necessary European project for decades.

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                                            Yeah, I've come round to that point of view, and by also being a remain position (the UK would not be a member of the EU) enables the referendum to be moved past without re-opening the wounds.

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                                              I feel like that most of the time as well. Other than the socialist nationalist* wing of Lexit, no one really thinks the EU is to the right of the UK government. So duct taping the UK's mouth shut for a while would do some good.

                                              * not literal Nazis, of course, but I can't think of a better term for the Full Brexit/Larry Elliot concept of a beautiful British Lexit to get away from those conniving EU bureaucrats who have somehow managed to push neoliberalism on us against our will, ignoring that we have had Thatcherite governments for basically forty years.

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                                                Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                                That's a very good point; I mentioned some pages ago that the best 'Lexit' case I've heard was a fella who was a complete and utter Europhile, and thinks that we've been buggering up/dragging down the - as he saw it - very noble and necessary European project for decades.
                                                How does he explain the Eurozone?

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                                                  No idea, it was months ago. Not sure what you mean, though.

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                                                    That Britain isn't responsible for the most problematic part of the EU.

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