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    Is that the fella who in the linked article says 'The amendment matches the unanimous policy of last September’s conference almost word for word, including, if all else fails to break the deadlock, the option of a public vote.'? Hm, I think it is.

    Best not to speak for 'the majority of our members' (as defined by a whole bunch of push-polling, skilfully dissected by Professor Curtice the other day) TAB, unless you join the Labour International organisation and get involved yourself.

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      I think that the thing is, TAB - and I mean this with respect, cos you're brilliant on so many parts of this board - that for somebody who rightly repeatedly points out that people/politicians in the UK don't get how bad their/our undertstanding of the EU appears to those outside the UK, you've got a remarkable lack of understanding of the political realities here in the UK. Like many others, Corbyn is to you both useless, and a potential saviour, able to conjure up all sorts of realities out of the most febrile mess. He's actually somewhere in between. (And just to reiterate, this is about Starmer too.)

      I'm a Labour member in 'Remain Central' - Caroline Lucas's constituency - and I can tell you that, even here, members understand the point of, and thinking behind, the conference vote. You're of course at liberty to say 'they're all fools', but please stop claiming that the majority of members have been duped. It's a load of misdirectional bollocks, I'm afraid.

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        What he said.

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          The language there from Lavery is pure Kipper. "Vote until they give the right answer", that's exactly what pub bores say about Ireland and the Lisbon Treaty.


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            Your argument is getting slightly incoherent. You're saying it's Ok for Ireland to be a corporate tax haven because everybody in Ireland knows you're a corporate tax haven and anyway everyone else in the EU is doing it? But the EU is also stopping doing it.

            No, I'm saying that the level of political sophistication of the average voter here is that of a particularly self interested 13 year old adolescent, who talks a good game about fairness, but is brutally focused on their own short term self interest, and not afraid to throw a massive fucking tantrum if they don't get their own way or don't like something. While the level of political sophistication of the typical UK voter and politician is more on the level of a six year old who shoves crayons up their nose. This isn't because the underlying people are in any way different, it's because UK poltiical culture is inward looking, delusional, embarrassing and deliberately stupifying. Hence Brexit. Small Countries can't afford to have a political culture as absurd or as introverted or stupid as the one in the UK, because we tried that, we tried that to the point of destruction, and that leads to fucking disaster and total collapse. This is a lesson that the UK is about to learn. It's a brutal, painful and savage lesson to learn, but it seems that the UK is going to have to stick its whole hand into the fire in order to learn the lesson.

            Also That statement isn't contradictory. It's just that we know that every country operates in exactly the same way, we just started before everyone else. First up Best dressed, and all that. We know that us unilaterally doing something isn't going to change anything, but we're not that averse to a gradual tightening up of the rules. We didn't arrive at this position by adherence to Neo-liberal ideology, whatever that may be. We arrived at this position because back in the fifties while the UK was desperately trying to cling onto as much of its empire as it possibly could, and retaining as much of the old economic system based on the captive empire market as possible, we had nothing, other than the dim awareness that you could make just about anything, anywhere, and transport it to everywhere. so why not do it here. This wasn't new to us, Thanks to our near neighbour, we'd been doing a variation of this since the 1650's. This is an old game, with slightly changed rules.

            This isn't a function of ideology. This is a function of the invention of the Cargo Container. We started out with a moderately well educated work force who saw relatively low wages by western european standards as unimaginable wealth, so we started out making relatively unsophisticated labour intensive products, and shipping them tariff free to England. We joined the European Union in pursuit of this strategy, because it allowed us access to more markets, making us a more attractive destination for this type of investment. Then those industries died a death in the face of imports from Asia, so we moved one step up the production ladder, and started attracting companies that made more complicated things, and paid better.

            Meanwhile it's wrong for the left in England who don't know if theycan win a General Election - given First Past The Post amongst other things to build a movement. If the sytem is going to be smashed there is precisely fuck allt hat Gilbert r anyone else can do about it- they can build an activist network which can organise and campaign about EU emmebrship and corprorate tax evasion- which has been raised inthe UK by the very groups you despise.

            "There is a perfectly avoidable iceberg on our current course, but it's too much hassle to get the captain to even try and change course, he's more worried that some of the passengers are going to be more offended by any deviation from our course set in harbour, than by drowning at sea. So lets rearrange the fucking deckchairs instead, and start preparing for life in the lifeboats. I'm sure there's going to be enough lifeboats right?"

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              What;'s necessary is informed analysis instead of abuse. As you don't seem to be capable of the former and overindulge in the latter I see no point in continuing to engage with you on here on this subject.

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                Nef, is something up with your keyboard?

                There seem to be extraneous characters in most of your recent posts (see, e.g., the semi colon in "What's" above)

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                  Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                  He seems to have pushed his crayons quite far up there. You can barely see them

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                    Groundhog Day.

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                      It's that man again!

                      https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1089163777256423424

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                        He's some cunt. He's even a prick on Mastermind.

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                          https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1089100600573341696

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                            Fucking hell, Humphreys is a national embarrassment and an utter, utter cunt. That level of arrogance and historical insensitivity is barely believable. And yes, he's a smug tool on Mastermind as well. But being a twat on Mastermind just spoils a quiz show. Being an arrogant moron to the Irish will just reinforce the beliefs of every Irish anglophobe (there isn't really a word "britophobe', is there, I mean I know JH is Welsh) that we are all a bunch of imperialist cunts who think Ireland ought to be ruled from London. It's enough to make you cry in shame and frustration.

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                              https://twitter.com/DanCardenMP/status/1088930632837795840

                              Wansbeck voted 56.2% Leave.

                              Labour in 2017 in Wansbeck got 57.3%

                              There's no way Lavery's voters were majority Brexit. Why are this minority so "integral to Labour thinking"?

                              Shouldn't this be a bit more integral?

                              https://twitter.com/BBCPeterH/status/1067756906582806528

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                                I've been shouting this into the ether ever since John Curtice did his analysis of the vote. Very few Labour seats are in danger from leave voters.

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                                  Juncker quite frankly tells May that any discussion on the backstop requires a permanent customs union.

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                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                    What;'s necessary is informed analysis instead of abuse. As you don't seem to be capable of the former and overindulge in the latter I see no point in continuing to engage with you on here on this subject.
                                    That's not abuse. It's a harsh truth, spoken plainly. The British political system isn't the sick man of europe, it's the piss soaked tramp of Europe. We've gone past the point of informed analysis. Now is the time to start fucking screaming. I read that article that Lavery wrote and he paints a vision of a wasteland britain, abandoned and underfunded by the state. A situation that is only going to be made considerably worse by any form of brexit.

                                    Brexit itself is insane nonsense, The Tory party has completely gone over the cliff into mentally degenerate lunacy. After two years of pointless fucking around they accepted pretty much the deal as laid out by the European union 2 years ago. 200 tory mps voted in favour of it, over 100 tory MPs voted against it, because it's not the Unicorn Brexit that they promised. There's not much left to say about these people. They are beyond fucking redemption. These people are the human version of the thing that is developing in the bottom of my food recycling bin. But they currently are where they are because they are the Government, and they have to implement Brexit, and this is the Brexit that the European Union thinks you should have, and they can't deal with it.

                                    The Labour Party, are a fucking disgrace. A fucking shambolic disgrace on Brexit. The Labour party position on Brexit is a) stupid b) dishonest c) delusional d) meaningless drivel. They are opposed to Theresa May's deal not because a) it is shit b) it is 'not what people voted for c) a clear sign that an agreed Brexit is going to be a national humiliation that bankrupts the state. No, they're against it because it doesn't include a permanent customs union. Their opposition is based on it not including a permanent customs union deal, which the EU has made extremely explicit isn't going to happen until the withdrawal agreement is passed.

                                    Any discussion of what the Labour party is doing, has to start from the premise that their brexit position is utter Bollocks, that is utterly unsustainable, or undeliverable, and is doomed to lead to a hard brexit under its own terms. Now maybe this might seem like good parliamentary Tactics to people who focus too much on the westminster bubble, but it is not a sustainable position, and we have passed the point where it needs to change.

                                    The tories are just a party of psychopaths who are only interested in transferring wealth from the bottom to the top They don't care about anyone. The Labour party on the other hand is supposed to worry about the welfare of all, and helping those in need, which in the UK is most people. It is utterly insane for a party that is nominally of the left to support something that is going to rain shit primarily on their supporters. There is not one ill affecting the people of Britain that is not going to be made worse by Brexit .

                                    The Labour party has three options at this point. a) maintain their current position and go right over the cliff edge into hard brexit B) Cave and support the withdrawal agreement as it stands c) say that the situation is hopeless, that Brexit was sold as a lie, and is undeliverable, and ask the people to do what parliament can't, and choose between a) Economic War, b) the horrible death by a thousand cuts of reality Brexit or c) vote to stay in the European Union.

                                    There is no point referring back to the conference motion for guidance because it is essentially open ended and leaves open the option of calling for a second referendum. However now that the time has come the glorious leader remains permanently fixed to his fucking nonsensical position, while his close supporters either say that a second referendum is impossible because it would take too long (B. Gardiner) or it would upset people who don't want to be asked a second time if they're sure about what appears to be a very different thing than they voted for. (Lavery) And it gradually seems to become clear that those who originally wanted to bring forward a motion calling for a second referendum and agreed to essentially leave it up to the leadership were fucked.

                                    It's a fucking disgrace, and you can't justify it by referring to the reality of English politics, as though that is immutable and unchangable, and as such takes precedence over external reality. Meanwhile every day the UK moves one day closer to Economic war, with no sign of changing course

                                    Labour have to stop thinking about a general election that may not happen for another three years, and have to start thinking about the fucking nightmare that is coming in the next few weeks. The Next election can take care of itself. If Britain leaves the EU, that's not an election that is going to be worth winning and the UK is not going to be a country fit to live in.

                                    As I said. it's the politics of Six year olds who shove crayons up their nose.

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                                      That's a lot of words to say "I disagree with Labour tactically".

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                                        No, they're against it because it doesn't include a permanent customs union. Their opposition is based on it not including a permanent customs union deal, which the EU has made extremely explicit isn't going to happen until the withdrawal agreement is passed.
                                        Erm dude. Read the post above yours.

                                        Also I try not to get involved in this thread, because the whole thing is just too depressing. But you still, despite being reminded about a billion times, can't seem to grasp that it doesn't fucking matter what Labour want. They're not in government. They are effectively powerless in this if the DUP prop up May's zombie government. They could holler from the rooftops that they support a second referendum, but it doesn't matter. It won't happen unless the Tories say it'll happen.

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                                          i would have thought it was more along the lines of "A lot of people reading this are going to lose their job, and your way of life is probably going to end "

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                                            Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                                            Erm dude. Read the post above yours.

                                            Also I try not to get involved in this thread, because the whole thing is just too depressing. But you still, despite being reminded about a billion times, can't seem to grasp that it doesn't fucking matter what Labour want. They're not in government. They are effectively powerless in this if the DUP prop up May's zombie government. They could holler from the rooftops that they support a second referendum, but it doesn't matter. It won't happen unless the Tories say it'll happen.
                                            Hobbes that article suggests that the Backstop could be "Northern Ireland only" if the UK promises to negotiate a permanent customs union in the next phase of discussions. That's not a concession, that's just rearranging some of the cosmetic details. That's not what labour want at all.

                                            The other thing is that one of the major barriers to labour Party members having a discussion about Brexit that is based in fucking reality, is their party policy which exists in fucking unicorn Brexit fucking LaLa land. It's about to all go tits up, and the two main political parties in the UK are ramming their fingers in their ear and singing about different types of Cake .
                                            Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 26-01-2019, 19:28.

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                                              Labour don't "want" anything other than that a) the Tories take the blame for it going to shit and b) that they aren't cast as the party that tried to block Brexit. As they don't have the vote to stop Brexit that seems an entirely reasonable position. I remain unconvinced that Labour advocating a second referendum would make it more likely to happen.

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                                                What Labour say they want is of course impossible and wouldn't be much good if they did get it.

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                                                  Well what is the reality based alternative other than simply voting for the withdrawal agreement. There is going to come a point in the next couple of weeks where the UK is going to have to shit or get off the pot. it is either going to have to a) embrace Hard Brexit and embark on a humiliating and destructive economic war. B) Accept Theresa May's deal or c) accept that parliament isn't going to be able to resolve this situation and put the matter to the people, in a less embarrassingly open ended referendum.

                                                  If Labour don't change their position, that third option isn't even going to be on the table. That safe option of kicking to touch isn't going to be there any more.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                    i would have thought it was more along the lines of "A lot of people reading this are going to lose their job, and your way of life is probably going to end "
                                                    Nonsense from experts.

                                                    Project Fear.

                                                    Scaremongering.

                                                    Traitors.

                                                    Enemies of the People.

                                                    Those who would plot like some latter day Catiline to overthrow the people's tribune.

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