Given that English NLS clubs said they couldn't start the season without fans - mostly for the reason that it would be financially ruinous - what makes the FAW confident that this won't bankrupt a load of their clubs?
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TNS beat Flint 10-0 today.
BBC article about the financial situation of Welsh football:
Welsh football battling 'dire situation' due to Covid-19, says FAW chief Jonathan Ford - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54394875
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Tight at the top of the Cymru Premier
Connahs Quay played 6, 16 points
TNS played 5, 15 points
Barry played 6, 15 points
After their opening day defeat to TNS, Barry have won 5 in a row. Some fans have been checking in on Futbology and I really don't know how they're doing that considering fans arent allowed to go in. They might be watching from the clubhouse but that can't be socially distanced because there are only 2 windows.
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Problems in the Cymru Premier because of the "Fire Break". Professional players can play. Other players can't. Some teams are going to continue playimg the next 3 weekends. Others can't. Barry could have continued with a reduced squad but have decided not to, in solidarity with other clubs affected. (And also to give some of their players time to recover from injury if being totally honest.)Last edited by Patrick Thistle; 21-10-2020, 08:27.
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Two newsy bits
Jazz Richards has joined Haverfordwest County for the rest of the season. He was a player who never really broke through, although he was a solid Wales under-21 and I think was part of the Euro 2016 squad. (I saw a tweet that said he's the second member of that squad to sign for a Cymru Premier team. David Cotterill at Barry being the other.)
The Cymru Premier has restarted. TNS drew with Bala on their first game back and then promptly sacked their management team. Connahs Quay look like they might win back to back championships and TNS consider qualifying for the CL Qualifiers as essential. Their business model as.a professional club relies on the payday of European qualification. The difference between Champions League and Europa League is thousands of euros. TNS owner Mike Harris wound up his northern counties Oswestry Town side at the start of the pandemic and a nearby rival moved into Park Hall and started paying rent. The venue attached to the ground that is another key source of income has been closed for a long time. If they don't get the CL money then it could be a tricky time ahead.
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And an opinion
The FAW has said it's considered and rejected a move to summer football. I'm quite disappointed by this.
Tbh they missed the opportunity with the pandemic to not restart in the autumn of 2020 and aim for a summer season in 2021. I know there are a lot of strong emotive reasons for not making the switch but they all seem to boil down to "I don't like change".
One of the reasons Welsh teams are perennially shit in European qualifiers is because they come up against teams who are midway through their football seasons. The Welsh teams play until the end of April, then need to get some kind of squad together for the end of June, play 2 competitive games (max) and then have to wait until mid August for the season to start.
Since switching to summer football, Irish clubs have qualified for the Europa League 3 times. I'm not saying Welsh clubs would but they would have more of a chance of competing. Wales is losing one of its UEFA places because the performance of teams in Europe has been so bad recently. That should be a cause of embarrassment for the FAW.
There are other good reasons for switching. Better weather means travelling on shit Welsh roads is much less risky. That would mean more away fans having the option to make beach party weekends of it in Barry and Llandudno.
Summer football would fit into the gap in the schedule over the summer as well. The English system clubs take a break. Rugby takes a break. Who knows? A TV company might want to take a punt on it - at least they would have something to show during the long, long football-free months.
Finally, you'd get fewer postponements and better pitches to play on. Fewer games relying on floodlights (which regularly fail in this league). Generally a better experience for players and supporters.
None of these arguments will convince people who automatically default to resisting change. The FAW is never going to be a revolutionary body pushing the domestic game. As a result the domestic system is always going to be thought of as "nonleague" and "tinpot" and it will wither on the vine. And yeah, summer football might not be the answer, but it could be.
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- Jul 2016
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I doubt if there's any fans, clubs or players in the league of Ireland who'd go back to winter football. The benefits of extra crowds can't be underestimated. It's a lot easier to persuade your family to go to a game in July than it is in February, plus as you said, the football tourism market is huge. I don't think I've been at a home league game in years that hasn't had at least one group of football weekenders in the bar beforehand.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostAnd an opinion
I know there are a lot of strong emotive reasons for not making the switch but they all seem to boil down to "I don't like change".
One of the big problems with summer football is that it really cocks up your football pyramid... something the FAW have been gradually working to restructure into something much more cohesive over the last few years. If only your top division, or top two divisions switch to the summer, then you've got a big disconnect when it comes to promotion and relegation between divisions, something I saw a few years ago when Doncaster Belles won promotion to the Women's Super League, and then had to sit twiddling their thumbs for 8 months before they could join in. It's the same issue with your domestic cups, as they cease being showpiece season finales and become something that happens mid-season instead.
The postponement/pitch issue is much less of a concern now surely, given that almost the entire top flight are playing on 3G or 4G; the Welsh Premier has kicked on a decent amount since players thrashing about in the mud at Llangefni.
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Is there a reason you can't change the whole pyramid? All football has been disrupted by the pandemic. My local free-to-watch tier 5 team started training in September but had delay after delay for a season start and eventually were told a couple of weeks back that the season has been cancelled. They now have to wait until August to restart, which will be getting on for 18 months since their last game.
There are a lot of 3G/4G pitches in the Cymru Premier but they aren't all of high quality. Barry's pitch failed UEFA standards in summer 2019 and it's still the same pitch now. They need to be replaced every 5 years or so, which is expensive. And they're only needed anyway because we play football in the winter.
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- Jul 2016
- 9390
- Dublin
- Bohemian FC Manchester United Mansfield town Torino Berwick rangers
- Chocolate Digestives
The FAi Cup is still the end of season highlight, it just gets played in early November instead of May. The first couple of rounds are held in April and May so the non league clubs are still in their season, then the later rounds are held from August onwards.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostIs there a reason you can't change the whole pyramid? All football has been disrupted by the pandemic. My local free-to-watch tier 5 team started training in September but had delay after delay for a season start and eventually were told a couple of weeks back that the season has been cancelled. They now have to wait until August to restart, which will be getting on for 18 months since their last game.
And bear in mind that the bulk of your positives for the argument of switching to summer are benefits which will only really be felt in the very top flight. Get into the lower leagues and that's going to be a tougher sell to get your league officials – who are likely to be staunch traditionalists – to vote for a switch to a summer game. I think it's fair to say anyone turning out for Penmaenmawr Phoenix is going to be more in favour of keeping their summers free than they are helping to boost Barry Town United's long-term UEFA co-efficient.
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OK, so don't switch the entire pyramid. I'm not entirely sold on pyramids anyway. (Yes, I know closed shops stagnate, but they also contribute to sugar daddy syndrome and clubs live in the perpetual red.) Or split the semiprofessional game and the amateur game with an overlap of a cup competition that starts for earnest in August similar to the FAI cup.
That final point about Penmaenmawr Phoenix indicates one of the problems for me. It's not in the immediate interest for Penmaenmawr Phoenix to have four European places available. So forget it. But when they draw Barry Town United in the Welsh Cup they'd quite welcome a coachload of travelling fans drinking in their clubhouse and increased interest from locals who might bother to stop by. Shame it's a.dark night in January and not enough Barry fans fancied it to make a coach worthwhile.and everyone local preferred.to stay home and watch Liverpool on Sky.
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On the amateur front as well, Grange Albion (my local SWAP team) have a playing field that can turn into a bog in winter. It's not unknown for them to be scheduled four games in 8 days to try and finish a season in time. Yeah every summer Saturday might be a problem. But a 7pm kick off in June would allow for midweek football without needing floodlights. Again, we are stuck with Saturdays because of the reduced daylight hours in winter because we play in winter.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostThat final point about Penmaenmawr Phoenix indicates one of the problems for me. It's not in the immediate interest for Penmaenmawr Phoenix to have four European places available. So forget it. But when they draw Barry Town United in the Welsh Cup they'd quite welcome a coachload of travelling fans drinking in their clubhouse and increased interest from locals who might bother to stop by. Shame it's a.dark night in January and not enough Barry fans fancied it to make a coach worthwhile.and everyone local preferred.to stay home and watch Liverpool on Sky.
Understandably any amateur club would welcome a visit from a well-supported side at any point, so again I'm not sure what you're getting at.
There are undoubtedly positives to summer football for the top level, particularly when it comes to clubs performance in Europe, to make the switch appealing. My primary point is that whether you do that comes down to how much value the FAW places on the pyramid it's been establishing. Because the only way you can do it is to introduce a closed shop above a certain point in the league, and that brings with it a whole load of other risks.
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Well my point was Penmaenmawr will.get bigger gates for the visit of a big club in the summer than the winter. Improving the UEFA coefficient isn't the only thing to think about, which is how I read your example.
I mentioned the UEFA places because, yes, that (may) affect the club I support. But it doesn't do Welsh football as a whole any good to have a domestic system that is regarded as inferior. Barry getting tonked 5-1 away in the Faroes is part of that problem. Effectively there are 4, soon to be 3, clubs who are forced to play summer football, fail miserably and it's all a bit embarrassing.
There's another opportunity in terms of moving football to the summer and growing futsal in the winter which may provide an alternative for teams. But the FAW's support for futsal isn't forward looking either.
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I've probably said all of this before......
I've always been against Summer Football from a traditionalist angle, I like football at Christmas time, I like the way the light conditions change according to the seasons. I like pre-season in July when you can go on holiday and not care that you're missing a match, but then the last year happened.
I started to rethink the notion, would it be better? Surely watching warm-weather football in shorts is nicer? I could finally get that season ticket for Nottingham Forest I'd always pined after! I could finally share a bit of banter with the other people on the train "Oh here he comes, the Tricky Tree!" I'll tell you something that was a glorious 10 minutes.
According to my logically sound prejudices summer football sounds great in theory but......
1) The players. As others have implied, how do you convince semi-pro players to forego their traditional summer holiday period? I'm not even sure that semi-pro clubs should be able to ask their players to do without a proper holiday. The phrase "DO IT FOR THE GLORY OF THE CLUB!!" may work with volunteers but not most players, especially if you have to cast you net wide. Even the famed clubs of the Welsh pyramid periodically struggle to attract players.
The academy system could theoretically partially rectify this as WPL licenses stipulate that your club must have a functioning academy. However, whilst the WPL academies can produce, and do produce players, they're not the stairways to football heaven that the more illustrious club academies are. I'm not sure the pull of a match or 3 of European football.is much of an incentive to a 16 year old. Besides there is no guarantee that the academy players will commit to the club that the academy is attached to, certain coaches may be unlikeable, likeable coaches might leave, there might not be a clear pathway to the first team etc etc.
2) Summer football might be fine for the European bound but it's not all that. The extra fitness would be useful but it needs to be allied to a league full of fully professional clubs. How that going to happen? I may be a romantic at heart but I can't see a fully professional league in Wales happening for a long while......."Are you a rich benefactor looking to put money in a football club? Do you want earn a relative fortune from European prize money so you can remain mobile on a 12 club treadmill for perpetuity? Then why not come and buy a football club in Welsh pyramid!" . Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham can draw benefactors but they have a realistic and tangible pathway to football "success".
3) Summer football smacks of a marketing idea and the application too much blue-sky thinking quite often diminishes enjoyable pastimes. Take the regionalisation of Welsh rugby, it may have concentrated Welsh rugby's elite talent but the fans' attitudes are lukewarm, for example there was something on last night's Scrum V about the alienation of the Valleys' rugby fans from "their" region in Cardiff.
First the FAW gave us the Super 12 format then it was the Park Hall inspired "3G football hubs", have either of these ideas improved the "matchday experience", or lead to an increase in crowd size? The ideas were worth trying but in my experience the Super 12 has increased boredom and created a more apparent player / manager merry-go-around and the 3G revolution has yet to create the umbilical links between clubs and their local community. In Llandudno you could argue that the 3G pitch has diverted people away from a municipally-owned facility towards a privately owned facility, and another thing,
if I hear the phrase "grow your club" again I shall not be responsible for my actions. I've never worked out how you "grow" a club? I'll hazard a guess that it takes years and years of effort to turn a football club into a cherished part of a community rather than slogans.
4) "It'll allow fans to follow their local club more, imagine the crowds!" Oh aye, I don't know of a fan of a club in the Welsh football pyramid that doesn't long for the day when they can be patronised by someone with their tales of "proper football".
Last edited by Kowalski; 08-03-2021, 17:39.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostWell my point was Penmaenmawr will.get bigger gates for the visit of a big club in the summer than the winter.
Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostI mentioned the UEFA places because, yes, that (may) affect the club I support. But it doesn't do Welsh football as a whole any good to have a domestic system that is regarded as inferior. Barry getting tonked 5-1 away in the Faroes is part of that problem. Effectively there are 4, soon to be 3, clubs who are forced to play summer football, fail miserably and it's all a bit embarrassing.
To go back to my original response, there are of course a lot of positives that would come with switching to a summer league, but to say anyone against that is just 'against change' isn't a fair take, because there's a lot more to be considered.
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I don't think comparing with the women's game is entirely relevant because it feels like a different fan base anyway. I would prefer to compare it to the Irish experience.
Yes my initial comment was "reductive". Maybe I should add 'it would be hard to change' to '... and we don't want to'.
It being hard to change is why I started out saying the pandemic offered an opportunity to really change things. At the moment almost the entire sport is on hiatus. An entire season has been lost. Some clubs haven't played for a year. I'm not.convinced we will go back to how it was before anyway.
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Once upon a time, when the WPL was called the League of Wales, France Football used to carry Welsh football results but they don't now. The problem is that this is both a problem for the WPL and a motivation to join in because "if you can't beat them join them". Why does the WPL need to implement the logic that has produced a Europe where football wealth is concentrated at the "glamourous" top?
Football is already the most popular sport in Wales, and football clubs already have a place within their communities, the FAW doesn't need to win over hearts and minds to conquer the sporting landscape that might not be crying out for their attention.
The WPL already has an inherent value because it produces a national champion and it has a decent profile thanks to Sgorio, things could be worse.
Why not be happy with what's already there? Obviously develop the community side, or increase inclusion, with decent initiatives like "We Wear The Same Shirt" but why do we need a marketing led approach? Cardiff City, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham aren't going to join the party are they?Last edited by Kowalski; 08-03-2021, 19:21.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostI don't think comparing with the women's game is entirely relevant because it feels like a different fan base anyway.
The point being, I can't see any compelling reasoning where crowds would increase just because the games are played in the summer. Maybe you might get a few more through the door at say Cefn Druids or Cardiff Met with it being the off season for Wrexham and Cardiff City, but that's not going to be consistent, because outside of June and July the EFL sides will still be playing.
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Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View PostI'm not sure what else was done to try and create a fanbase there apart from the summer switch. I feel with women's football you have to really go looking for it. Limited fixtures only got added to Futbology last year, for example.
I just don't see how the Welsh Premier switching from winter to summer would magically bring in more fans
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