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    Given that English NLS clubs said they couldn't start the season without fans - mostly for the reason that it would be financially ruinous - what makes the FAW confident that this won't bankrupt a load of their clubs?

    Comment


      I think it might be their attempt of pressuring the Welsh Government into letting fans in.

      Comment


        TNS beat Flint 10-0 today.

        BBC article about the financial situation of Welsh football:

        Welsh football battling 'dire situation' due to Covid-19, says FAW chief Jonathan Ford - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54394875

        Comment


          Tight at the top of the Cymru Premier
          Connahs Quay played 6, 16 points
          TNS played 5, 15 points
          Barry played 6, 15 points

          After their opening day defeat to TNS, Barry have won 5 in a row. Some fans have been checking in on Futbology and I really don't know how they're doing that considering fans arent allowed to go in. They might be watching from the clubhouse but that can't be socially distanced because there are only 2 windows.

          Comment


            Problems in the Cymru Premier because of the "Fire Break". Professional players can play. Other players can't. Some teams are going to continue playimg the next 3 weekends. Others can't. Barry could have continued with a reduced squad but have decided not to, in solidarity with other clubs affected. (And also to give some of their players time to recover from injury if being totally honest.)
            Last edited by Patrick Thistle; 21-10-2020, 08:27.

            Comment


              Two newsy bits

              Jazz Richards has joined Haverfordwest County for the rest of the season. He was a player who never really broke through, although he was a solid Wales under-21 and I think was part of the Euro 2016 squad. (I saw a tweet that said he's the second member of that squad to sign for a Cymru Premier team. David Cotterill at Barry being the other.)

              The Cymru Premier has restarted. TNS drew with Bala on their first game back and then promptly sacked their management team. Connahs Quay look like they might win back to back championships and TNS consider qualifying for the CL Qualifiers as essential. Their business model as.a professional club relies on the payday of European qualification. The difference between Champions League and Europa League is thousands of euros. TNS owner Mike Harris wound up his northern counties Oswestry Town side at the start of the pandemic and a nearby rival moved into Park Hall and started paying rent. The venue attached to the ground that is another key source of income has been closed for a long time. If they don't get the CL money then it could be a tricky time ahead.

              Comment


                And an opinion

                The FAW has said it's considered and rejected a move to summer football. I'm quite disappointed by this.

                Tbh they missed the opportunity with the pandemic to not restart in the autumn of 2020 and aim for a summer season in 2021. I know there are a lot of strong emotive reasons for not making the switch but they all seem to boil down to "I don't like change".

                One of the reasons Welsh teams are perennially shit in European qualifiers is because they come up against teams who are midway through their football seasons. The Welsh teams play until the end of April, then need to get some kind of squad together for the end of June, play 2 competitive games (max) and then have to wait until mid August for the season to start.

                Since switching to summer football, Irish clubs have qualified for the Europa League 3 times. I'm not saying Welsh clubs would but they would have more of a chance of competing. Wales is losing one of its UEFA places because the performance of teams in Europe has been so bad recently. That should be a cause of embarrassment for the FAW.

                There are other good reasons for switching. Better weather means travelling on shit Welsh roads is much less risky. That would mean more away fans having the option to make beach party weekends of it in Barry and Llandudno.

                Summer football would fit into the gap in the schedule over the summer as well. The English system clubs take a break. Rugby takes a break. Who knows? A TV company might want to take a punt on it - at least they would have something to show during the long, long football-free months.

                Finally, you'd get fewer postponements and better pitches to play on. Fewer games relying on floodlights (which regularly fail in this league). Generally a better experience for players and supporters.

                None of these arguments will convince people who automatically default to resisting change. The FAW is never going to be a revolutionary body pushing the domestic game. As a result the domestic system is always going to be thought of as "nonleague" and "tinpot" and it will wither on the vine. And yeah, summer football might not be the answer, but it could be.

                Comment


                  I doubt if there's any fans, clubs or players in the league of Ireland who'd go back to winter football. The benefits of extra crowds can't be underestimated. It's a lot easier to persuade your family to go to a game in July than it is in February, plus as you said, the football tourism market is huge. I don't think I've been at a home league game in years that hasn't had at least one group of football weekenders in the bar beforehand.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                    And an opinion
                    I know there are a lot of strong emotive reasons for not making the switch but they all seem to boil down to "I don't like change".
                    I'm not saying that I disagree with the positives listed, but the above is a bit reductive.

                    One of the big problems with summer football is that it really cocks up your football pyramid... something the FAW have been gradually working to restructure into something much more cohesive over the last few years. If only your top division, or top two divisions switch to the summer, then you've got a big disconnect when it comes to promotion and relegation between divisions, something I saw a few years ago when Doncaster Belles won promotion to the Women's Super League, and then had to sit twiddling their thumbs for 8 months before they could join in. It's the same issue with your domestic cups, as they cease being showpiece season finales and become something that happens mid-season instead.

                    The postponement/pitch issue is much less of a concern now surely, given that almost the entire top flight are playing on 3G or 4G; the Welsh Premier has kicked on a decent amount since players thrashing about in the mud at Llangefni.

                    Comment


                      Is there a reason you can't change the whole pyramid? All football has been disrupted by the pandemic. My local free-to-watch tier 5 team started training in September but had delay after delay for a season start and eventually were told a couple of weeks back that the season has been cancelled. They now have to wait until August to restart, which will be getting on for 18 months since their last game.

                      There are a lot of 3G/4G pitches in the Cymru Premier but they aren't all of high quality. Barry's pitch failed UEFA standards in summer 2019 and it's still the same pitch now. They need to be replaced every 5 years or so, which is expensive. And they're only needed anyway because we play football in the winter.

                      Comment


                        The FAi Cup is still the end of season highlight, it just gets played in early November instead of May. The first couple of rounds are held in April and May so the non league clubs are still in their season, then the later rounds are held from August onwards.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                          Is there a reason you can't change the whole pyramid? All football has been disrupted by the pandemic. My local free-to-watch tier 5 team started training in September but had delay after delay for a season start and eventually were told a couple of weeks back that the season has been cancelled. They now have to wait until August to restart, which will be getting on for 18 months since their last game.
                          You'd lose players lower down the pyramid if you switched to a summer game. The conflict with summer sports (chiefly cricket) is less an issue in Wales than it would be in much of England, but any part-time footballer with a family is unlikely to want to give up every summer Saturday, or have a spouse who is happy for them to do so, so you're going to have issues with fielding teams in peak holiday times in particular.

                          And bear in mind that the bulk of your positives for the argument of switching to summer are benefits which will only really be felt in the very top flight. Get into the lower leagues and that's going to be a tougher sell to get your league officials – who are likely to be staunch traditionalists – to vote for a switch to a summer game. I think it's fair to say anyone turning out for Penmaenmawr Phoenix is going to be more in favour of keeping their summers free than they are helping to boost Barry Town United's long-term UEFA co-efficient.

                          Comment


                            OK, so don't switch the entire pyramid. I'm not entirely sold on pyramids anyway. (Yes, I know closed shops stagnate, but they also contribute to sugar daddy syndrome and clubs live in the perpetual red.) Or split the semiprofessional game and the amateur game with an overlap of a cup competition that starts for earnest in August similar to the FAI cup.

                            That final point about Penmaenmawr Phoenix indicates one of the problems for me. It's not in the immediate interest for Penmaenmawr Phoenix to have four European places available. So forget it. But when they draw Barry Town United in the Welsh Cup they'd quite welcome a coachload of travelling fans drinking in their clubhouse and increased interest from locals who might bother to stop by. Shame it's a.dark night in January and not enough Barry fans fancied it to make a coach worthwhile.and everyone local preferred.to stay home and watch Liverpool on Sky.

                            Comment


                              On the amateur front as well, Grange Albion (my local SWAP team) have a playing field that can turn into a bog in winter. It's not unknown for them to be scheduled four games in 8 days to try and finish a season in time. Yeah every summer Saturday might be a problem. But a 7pm kick off in June would allow for midweek football without needing floodlights. Again, we are stuck with Saturdays because of the reduced daylight hours in winter because we play in winter.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                That final point about Penmaenmawr Phoenix indicates one of the problems for me. It's not in the immediate interest for Penmaenmawr Phoenix to have four European places available. So forget it. But when they draw Barry Town United in the Welsh Cup they'd quite welcome a coachload of travelling fans drinking in their clubhouse and increased interest from locals who might bother to stop by. Shame it's a.dark night in January and not enough Barry fans fancied it to make a coach worthwhile.and everyone local preferred.to stay home and watch Liverpool on Sky.
                                I have to say I don't really understand what your point is here. I was illustrating that convincing every division of Welsh football below (lets assume) the second tier that they need to switch to summer football would be very difficult because their interest is surviving as a league and/or as a club rather than the European fortunes of a select half dozen of sides, and summer football would thin the availability of players, putting that club survival in jeopardy.

                                Understandably any amateur club would welcome a visit from a well-supported side at any point, so again I'm not sure what you're getting at.

                                There are undoubtedly positives to summer football for the top level, particularly when it comes to clubs performance in Europe, to make the switch appealing. My primary point is that whether you do that comes down to how much value the FAW places on the pyramid it's been establishing. Because the only way you can do it is to introduce a closed shop above a certain point in the league, and that brings with it a whole load of other risks.

                                Comment


                                  Well my point was Penmaenmawr will.get bigger gates for the visit of a big club in the summer than the winter. Improving the UEFA coefficient isn't the only thing to think about, which is how I read your example.

                                  I mentioned the UEFA places because, yes, that (may) affect the club I support. But it doesn't do Welsh football as a whole any good to have a domestic system that is regarded as inferior. Barry getting tonked 5-1 away in the Faroes is part of that problem. Effectively there are 4, soon to be 3, clubs who are forced to play summer football, fail miserably and it's all a bit embarrassing.

                                  There's another opportunity in terms of moving football to the summer and growing futsal in the winter which may provide an alternative for teams. But the FAW's support for futsal isn't forward looking either.

                                  Comment


                                    I've probably said all of this before......

                                    I've always been against Summer Football from a traditionalist angle, I like football at Christmas time, I like the way the light conditions change according to the seasons. I like pre-season in July when you can go on holiday and not care that you're missing a match, but then the last year happened.

                                    I started to rethink the notion, would it be better? Surely watching warm-weather football in shorts is nicer? I could finally get that season ticket for Nottingham Forest I'd always pined after! I could finally share a bit of banter with the other people on the train "Oh here he comes, the Tricky Tree!" I'll tell you something that was a glorious 10 minutes.

                                    According to my logically sound prejudices summer football sounds great in theory but......

                                    1) The players. As others have implied, how do you convince semi-pro players to forego their traditional summer holiday period? I'm not even sure that semi-pro clubs should be able to ask their players to do without a proper holiday. The phrase "DO IT FOR THE GLORY OF THE CLUB!!" may work with volunteers but not most players, especially if you have to cast you net wide. Even the famed clubs of the Welsh pyramid periodically struggle to attract players.

                                    The academy system could theoretically partially rectify this as WPL licenses stipulate that your club must have a functioning academy. However, whilst the WPL academies can produce, and do produce players, they're not the stairways to football heaven that the more illustrious club academies are. I'm not sure the pull of a match or 3 of European football.is much of an incentive to a 16 year old. Besides there is no guarantee that the academy players will commit to the club that the academy is attached to, certain coaches may be unlikeable, likeable coaches might leave, there might not be a clear pathway to the first team etc etc.

                                    2) Summer football might be fine for the European bound but it's not all that. The extra fitness would be useful but it needs to be allied to a league full of fully professional clubs. How that going to happen? I may be a romantic at heart but I can't see a fully professional league in Wales happening for a long while......."Are you a rich benefactor looking to put money in a football club? Do you want earn a relative fortune from European prize money so you can remain mobile on a 12 club treadmill for perpetuity? Then why not come and buy a football club in Welsh pyramid!" . Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham can draw benefactors but they have a realistic and tangible pathway to football "success".

                                    3) Summer football smacks of a marketing idea and the application too much blue-sky thinking quite often diminishes enjoyable pastimes. Take the regionalisation of Welsh rugby, it may have concentrated Welsh rugby's elite talent but the fans' attitudes are lukewarm, for example there was something on last night's Scrum V about the alienation of the Valleys' rugby fans from "their" region in Cardiff.

                                    First the FAW gave us the Super 12 format then it was the Park Hall inspired "3G football hubs", have either of these ideas improved the "matchday experience", or lead to an increase in crowd size? The ideas were worth trying but in my experience the Super 12 has increased boredom and created a more apparent player / manager merry-go-around and the 3G revolution has yet to create the umbilical links between clubs and their local community. In Llandudno you could argue that the 3G pitch has diverted people away from a municipally-owned facility towards a privately owned facility, and another thing,

                                    if I hear the phrase "grow your club" again I shall not be responsible for my actions. I've never worked out how you "grow" a club? I'll hazard a guess that it takes years and years of effort to turn a football club into a cherished part of a community rather than slogans.

                                    4) "It'll allow fans to follow their local club more, imagine the crowds!" Oh aye, I don't know of a fan of a club in the Welsh football pyramid that doesn't long for the day when they can be patronised by someone with their tales of "proper football".
                                    Last edited by Kowalski; 08-03-2021, 17:39.

                                    Comment


                                      No offence Kowalski but reading that makes me wonder if the FAW should jack it in and encourage their clubs to seek to rejoin the English leagues.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                        Well my point was Penmaenmawr will.get bigger gates for the visit of a big club in the summer than the winter.
                                        I'm not sure that stands up, I mean, why would they? The vast majority of lower league Welsh clubs don't have floodlights, so regardless of whether its in the summer or winter a home cup tie against a Premier side is going to be played on a Saturday afternoon when (Covid aside) there won't be a competing broadcast of an English Premier League game. If you're not going to go to Llanfairfechan v Caernarfon in the winter, you're probably not going to go in the summer either. It's one of the reasons why the Women's Super League switched back to winter... the bigger crowd argument just never really came to fruition.


                                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                        I mentioned the UEFA places because, yes, that (may) affect the club I support. But it doesn't do Welsh football as a whole any good to have a domestic system that is regarded as inferior. Barry getting tonked 5-1 away in the Faroes is part of that problem. Effectively there are 4, soon to be 3, clubs who are forced to play summer football, fail miserably and it's all a bit embarrassing.
                                        Yes, I get that, and I'd love to see Welsh clubs do better in Europe, and I'm sure every Welsh football person would... but the point I'm making is that this alone isn't going to convince the entire pyramid to switch to summer football. So the only way you can introduce summer football is at the top, or top two, tiers which would be against everything the FAW has been trying to do in reorganising the pyramid. Plus if you play for (or support) a club in the Ardal Leagues, you're hardly going to be supportive of a system that shuts off promotion to the tier above.


                                        To go back to my original response, there are of course a lot of positives that would come with switching to a summer league, but to say anyone against that is just 'against change' isn't a fair take, because there's a lot more to be considered.

                                        Comment


                                          I don't think comparing with the women's game is entirely relevant because it feels like a different fan base anyway. I would prefer to compare it to the Irish experience.

                                          Yes my initial comment was "reductive". Maybe I should add 'it would be hard to change' to '... and we don't want to'.

                                          It being hard to change is why I started out saying the pandemic offered an opportunity to really change things. At the moment almost the entire sport is on hiatus. An entire season has been lost. Some clubs haven't played for a year. I'm not.convinced we will go back to how it was before anyway.

                                          Comment


                                            Once upon a time, when the WPL was called the League of Wales, France Football used to carry Welsh football results but they don't now. The problem is that this is both a problem for the WPL and a motivation to join in because "if you can't beat them join them". Why does the WPL need to implement the logic that has produced a Europe where football wealth is concentrated at the "glamourous" top?

                                            Football is already the most popular sport in Wales, and football clubs already have a place within their communities, the FAW doesn't need to win over hearts and minds to conquer the sporting landscape that might not be crying out for their attention.

                                            The WPL already has an inherent value because it produces a national champion and it has a decent profile thanks to Sgorio, things could be worse.

                                            Why not be happy with what's already there? Obviously develop the community side, or increase inclusion, with decent initiatives like "We Wear The Same Shirt" but why do we need a marketing led approach? Cardiff City, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham aren't going to join the party are they?
                                            Last edited by Kowalski; 08-03-2021, 19:21.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                              I don't think comparing with the women's game is entirely relevant because it feels like a different fan base anyway.
                                              It wasn't a comparison, it was an example of where a governing body predicted that a switch to summer football would bring in fans, but it ultimately proved not to be the case.

                                              The point being, I can't see any compelling reasoning where crowds would increase just because the games are played in the summer. Maybe you might get a few more through the door at say Cefn Druids or Cardiff Met with it being the off season for Wrexham and Cardiff City, but that's not going to be consistent, because outside of June and July the EFL sides will still be playing.

                                              Comment


                                                I'm not sure what else was done to try and create a fanbase there apart from the summer switch. I feel with women's football you have to really go looking for it. Limited fixtures only got added to Futbology last year, for example.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                                  I'm not sure what else was done to try and create a fanbase there apart from the summer switch. I feel with women's football you have to really go looking for it. Limited fixtures only got added to Futbology last year, for example.
                                                  Well there was the massive promotional rebranding exercise behind calling the league the Super League and securing live broadcasts of league games for the first time for a start... but that's a different matter.

                                                  I just don't see how the Welsh Premier switching from winter to summer would magically bring in more fans

                                                  Comment


                                                    OK. Fair enough.

                                                    It's moot anyway. The FAW aren't going for it and they've missed the window now.

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