The Brexit Thread

[Lang Spoon]

Solid parsing.

[Sporting]

Giving a definition for each individual word ain't parsing.

[Lang Spoon]

Oh aye. Been a long time since I rock n rolled the TEFL.

[Lang Spoon]

Swinson is just something else. That vid of her and Berger is terrifying.

[Lang Spoon]

The Jane Godley voiceover is worth a watch.

[Janik]

Labour’s Position

referendum with Remain on the ballot

[URL]https://twitter.com/etymologic/status/1174050024470339584?s=21[/URL]

It's still a bunch of equivocating arse. What is he going to campaign for if such a referendum ever happened? Remain, or the deal to leave he has just re-negotiated? Presumably the later, i.e. taking Britain out of the EU, because otherwise he would be doing a Grieve and voting against his own proposal. Which is never a good look. And whatever side he backs in such a referendum, the intent if something else wins is for him to stay on as Prime Minister to implement the policy he has specifically campaigned against and that has effectively been imposed on him. Tail wagging the dog. We saw with Cameron just how absurd and impossible that is. It's as pie-in-the-sky unworkable as, well, all the previous Labour policies that were also trying to be all things to all men have been. At some point they will get the splinters out, but it's going to take years.

[Lang Spoon]

Aye.

[Janik]

The reason being that they want some kind of Brexit rather than reversing Brexit altogether.

No, they don't. Check the policy.

So, johnr, how do you square your response to ale with the Guardian story in Nef's tweet? Are Labour pro-Remain and proposing negotiating a deal they won't believe in and don't want to win, in which case how will anyone pro-Leave ever believe they were negotiating it in good faith? Or are the actually pro-Leave, albeit on what they would consider substantially better terms? Which is still pro-Leave however you try and twist it.

[George C.]

Labour are Pro-Remain.

Just only when Jezza retires.

[Nefertiti2]

Labour is proposing to give the country a choice between remaining and the best deal they can negotiate.

it accepts that there was a referendum that Leave won. That since then there’s been three years of Tory standstill because of their commitment to impossible red lines and their desire to break workers rights & lower environmental standards.

Labour will offer the country the chance to move on. If people feel that no Leave deal is better than Remain then we will remain.

[Nefertiti2]

It's still a bunch of equivocating arse. What is he going to campaign for if such a referendum ever happened? Remain, or the deal to leave he has just re-negotiated? Presumably the later, i.e. taking Britain out of the EU, because otherwise he would be doing a Grieve and voting against his own proposal. Which is never a good look. And whatever side he backs in such a referendum, the intent if something else wins is for him to stay on as Prime Minister to implement the policy he has specifically campaigned against and that has effectively been imposed on him. Tail wagging the dog. We saw with Cameron just how absurd and impossible that is. It's as pie-in-the-sky unworkable as, well, all the previous Labour policies that were also trying to be all things to all men have been. At some point they will get the splinters out, but it's going to take years.

What’s your alternative?

[San Bernardhinault]

Labour is proposing to give the country a choice between remaining and the best deal they can negotiate.

it accepts that there was a referendum that Leave won. That since then there’s been three years of Tory standstill because of their commitment to impossible red lines and their desire to break workers rights & lower environmental standards.

Labour will offer the country the chance to move on. If people feel that no Leave deal is better than Remain then we will remain.

And what will Labour campaign for? Which of these two positions do they support? Or do they not have any opinion at all and will not campaign and will let the Brexit Morons define the terms of the argument again?

[Flynnie]

What’s your alternative?

More whining when Leave wins again, on worse terms than what Corbyn is proposing here.

The Remainist fantasy that you don’t need a safety net is just staggering considering the ineptitude of the last Remain campaign.

[Flynnie]

And what will Labour campaign for? Which of these two positions do they support?

Why have an official position? There will transparently be Labour MPs from all wings of the party campaigning to leave and transparently Labour MPs from all wings of the party campaigning to remain. What good does an official position do? It’s done fuck all for the Conservative Party.

[Nefertiti2]

So no-one proposing an alternative I see.

If you say „ referendum „ what are the choices on the ballot going to be?

[San Bernardhinault]

So no-one proposing an alternative I see.

If you say „ referendum „ what are the choices on the ballot going to be?

It could easily be May's Deal or Remain. We've already been told by the EU that May's Deal is the best we're going to get. So what's the point in going back to renegotiate? Also, I don't think that Labour have articulated anything (realistic) that they want from a Withdrawal Agreement that's not in May's Deal.

Or, having had the only deal the EU will offer rejected by parliament on multiple occasions, it could be No Deal or Remain.

Either position is consistent and coherent, and doesn't require Labour to campaign against the very thing they've just negotiated.

[Flynnie]

It could easily be May's Deal or Remain. We've already been told by the EU that May's Deal is the best we're going to get. So what's the point in going back to renegotiate? Also, I don't think that Labour have articulated anything (realistic) that they want from a Withdrawal Agreement that's not in May's Deal.

Or, having had the only deal the EU will offer rejected by parliament on multiple occasions, it could be No Deal or Remain.

Either position is consistent and coherent, and doesn't require Labour to campaign against the very thing they've just negotiated.

This is wrong by sentence two.

May’s deal is the best you can get with her red lines. Labour do not hold those red lines.

putting No Deal on a ballot is gross misconduct given people still haven’t figured out what that means.

[George C.]

Labour is proposing to give the country a choice between remaining and the best deal they can negotiate.

it accepts that there was a referendum that Leave won. That since then there’s been three years of Tory standstill because of their commitment to impossible red lines and their desire to break workers rights & lower environmental standards.

Labour will offer the country the chance to move on. If people feel that no Leave deal is better than Remain then we will remain.

With the best will in the world, can't see any losers benignly just accepting 'any result', in a calm and passive manner.

Or it resolving anything.

[San Bernardhinault]

Also, if parties backing revocation of Article 50 won a majority, there would be no need for a referendum at all. Personally, I've found the idea of the second referendum to always be about expedience rather than substance - it's only a way of getting to revoke. Nobody actually believes that we need a second referendum, just that a second referendum is the only way of getting to the position we believe in. Campaigning for a "Peoples Vote" is basically a lie, it really means campaigning for "Remain". If Labour committed to remaining and won a majority (or won a majority alongside the Nationalists and Lib Dems), we can be done with this nonsense a week after the election.

[George C.]

So no-one proposing an alternative I see.

If you say „ referendum „ what are the choices on the ballot going to be?

For me,
NDB v. Remain.

And pray for a 70-30 victory.
For the latter.

[Hot Pepsi]

That sounds good.

Or maybe have three to six more referendums. Best out of seven.

[Lang Spoon]

Let's just be absolutely clear (in Swinson, Cameron speak) the deal (even May's) is for the withdrawal agreement. It doesn't commit to any future arrangements. That comes after Brexit (and would be thrashed out during the transition period of an orderly Brexit). The political declaration is a ball of smoke.


Labour should have accepted her deal. Though I understand completely why they couldn't, politically.

[Lang Spoon]

Let's just have the break up of this loveless Union and let England have its (hopefully bloodless) civil war.

[San Bernardhinault]

May’s deal is the best you can get with her red lines. Labour do not hold those red lines.

So what would Labour try to change in their renegotiation?

[Lang Spoon]

They would have to stop triangulating on FoM/ SM for us to be sure.