The Dis-United Kingdom Thread - (Indyref 2, United Ireland poll, Welsh independence)

[Felicity, I guess so]

I missed Nef getting banned...??

[Sporting]

I missed Nef getting banned...??

https://www.onetouchfootball.com/for...st#post2505860

[DCI Harry Batt]

Yeah, "legally ringfenced" is meaningless nonsense. Still bad in principle, mind.

I hope Nef returns after his enforced week off. Be a real shame to lose him as a poster.

[Felicity, I guess so]

https://www.onetouchfootball.com/for...st#post2505860

Right, ta. I'm guessing Afghanistan...and agree we would miss his contributions

[Hot Pepsi]

And here's what he said



Some of that sounds like typical.persecuted white male syndrome. Oh it's taboo to be patriotic. You can't even say you love your country any more. Those meanie lefty libs...

If English people in the North or West feel they are being left out of the power structure, they should stick up for themselves and seek more devolved power for the North rather than asking everyone else to just give up too.

[Hot Pepsi]

The thing about Welsh Labour (or at least the faction of it in power in Wales at the moment) is they're not unionists in the sense that Ulster Unionists are. They are openly in favour of the idea of Wales as a nation, they just think the best future for that nation is as part of the union. They're Unionist-Nationalists, if that makes sense. One of the reasons I think they've been so historically successful is that they've stopped Plaid Cymru having a monopoly on Welsh nationalism. Both the separatism of Plaid and the unionism of Welsh Labour are Welsh in character. Even Tory Unionism - which certainly isn't (welsh) nationalist

Whereas Ulster Unionism is rooted in the Protestant Ascendency: the denial of civil rights and economic justice to Irish Catholics and a segregationist state. There are more and less benign forms of ulster unionism but it is, at its core, a territory carved out for the sole purpose of disenfranchising Catholics.

Northern ireland remaining in union with the UK is according to most opinion polls the current preference of a majority of the population of the territory, but historical unionism hasn't really been interested in what the majority of the population thinks or democracy really either on the island of Ireland or within the United Kingdom.

As I recall, I asked before why there wasn't a party seeking Northern Ireland independence. Of course, without the EU, that's probably just economically untenable, but it seemed to me that, within the EU, it should be possible for the majority of people in NI to say "We're really Irish and we're not English. We're our own thing."

But apparently the only Northern Ireland independence party was otherwise pretty conservative and reactionary, which lends credibility to the thesis that the existence of Northern Ireland is so rooted in sectarian nastiness and/or militarism that not many people can see a future for the place that isn't connected to any of that.

[Discordant Resonance]

It's only since the mid-Nineties that Alliance were able to articulate a non-sectarian position, as the Troubles largely came to an end, and as with Rhodesia, the argument for NI independence earlier was essentially "London has abandoned us, so we can only defend our cultural and political dominance by means of secession". Of course, both the Nationalist Party and the SDLP were derided by more militant Catholics as Uncle Toms accepting the status quo without any meaningful platform for improving their position, even when constitutional change was beyond their control.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

As I recall, I asked before why there wasn't a party seeking Northern Ireland independence. Of course, without the EU, that's probably just economically untenable, but it seemed to me that, within the EU, it should be possible for the majority of people in NI to say "We're really Irish and we're not English. We're our own thing."

But apparently the only Northern Ireland independence party was otherwise pretty conservative and reactionary, which lends credibility to the thesis that the existence of Northern Ireland is so rooted in sectarian nastiness and/or militarism that not many people can see a future for the place that isn't connected to any of that.

It's like asking why there hasn't been an anti-racist movement for secession in the southern US.

The Official IRA/OSF/WPI's position (eventually) ended up at "Northern Ireland is its own nation and it should seek independence on that basis". They found (in the north at least) that that was a very lonely furrow to plough and they only really had electoral success in the south.

But despite trying very hard to win unionists round (much harder than they ever tried to heal the divides on the nationalist side) they only found a handful of loyalists ready to take them seriously, who were quickly marginalised or murdered by their own side, and they never made any headway at all.

[Lang Spoon]

Their most pompous and self-serving members did manage to take over the Irish Labour party though, after they stopped robbing post offices, being insufferable Tankies and getting caught up with North Korean printed funny money.

[Patrick Thistle]

As I recall, I asked before why there wasn't a party seeking Northern Ireland independence.

I think historically the North is the bit of Ireland that didn't want independence when the rest did (although obviously some people would have wanted it) so the idea of a party pushing to be separate from both the UK and the Republic of Ireland would be a third way that just wouldn't occur to most people.

Northern Ireland is a very weird society (based on my limited visits there but backed up by ex-pats who were glad to escape). The red, white and blue kerbstones denoting loyalist estates really stick in my mind.

[Hot Pepsi]

I think historically the North is the bit of Ireland that didn't want independence when the rest did (although obviously some people would have wanted it) so the idea of a party pushing to be separate from both the UK and the Republic of Ireland would be a third way that just wouldn't occur to most people.

Northern Ireland is a very weird society (based on my limited visits there but backed up by ex-pats who were glad to escape). The red, white and blue kerbstones denoting loyalist estates really stick in my mind.

Yeah, just like Canada, albeit a long time ago. It was the part that stayed in the Empire when its neighbors split off.

Of course, Canada is a lot further from England than Northern Ireland, so it's easier to see how its culture diverged from that of the motherland. And there is, of course, the whole French part that is doing its own thing, not to mention the people that were there first. They have some notes, needless to say.

However, its lucky to have avoided any prolonged violence and has been fairly welcoming to immigrants.



It's like asking why there hasn't been an anti-racist movement for secession in the southern US.

I think there may have been here and there. Didn't pick up much steam, of course.

[Patrick Thistle]

Yes, I remember driving into Ontario and seeing the signs for little towns that had the moniker "a loyalist settlement" - basically founded by people leaving one of the colonies that had declared independence.

[DCI Harry Batt]

I think historically the North is the bit of Ireland that didn't want independence when the rest did (although obviously some people would have wanted it)

Woah there!

The six counties was engineered to have a Protestant majority, for sure. But that isn't why Tyrone and Fermanagh were included.

[Patrick Thistle]

Yeah it's not an accurate reflection of history. It was more trying to explain why independence for NI was unlikely given the reason it exists separate from the Republic in the first place.

[elguapo4]

I think historically the North is the bit of Ireland that didn't want independence when the rest did (although obviously some people would have wanted it) so the idea of a party pushing to be separate from both the UK and the Republic of Ireland would be a third way that just wouldn't occur to most people.

Northern Ireland is a very weird society (based on my limited visits there but backed up by ex-pats who were glad to escape). The red, white and blue kerbstones denoting loyalist estates really stick in my mind.

Yeah, those kerbstones stuck in my mind when I took a wrong turn in Belfast one day . Thankfully, it was a pissing rain Monday afternoon and there was no one around.

[Discordant Resonance]

All Under One Banner Kernow to launch in October:

https://twitter.com/AUOB_Kernow_/status/1433034200647667716

[Lang Spoon]

Interesting font.

[NHH]

Given 50% of Cornwall residents are blow-in pensioners too afraid to stride out with purpose to Benidorm like the rest of their brethren, I fear for their chances.

[Patrick Thistle]

This information about the Welsh invading, er, Caerphilly, keeps popping up on my timeline.

https://twitter.com/CymraegCorrect/status/1436990379044257792?s=19

[Gas In Name Only]

Yes, I remember driving into Ontario and seeing the signs for little towns that had the moniker "a loyalist settlement" - basically founded by people leaving one of the colonies that had declared independence.

Them be my ancestors - Dutch emigrants who settled in Pennsylvania but moved north after independence and granted land in Ontario as a reward for their loyalty to the Crown

[Discordant Resonance]

The League of Wales would undoubtedly welcome Shrewsbury, Hereford and Cheltenham:

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1438078225482199050

[Discordant Resonance]

As ever, the NI Secretary post is the Westminster equivalent of the Ambassador to Mongolia:

https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1438084381067956225

[Patrick Thistle]

The League of Wales would undoubtedly welcome Shrewsbury, Hereford and Cheltenham:

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1438078225482199050

It's just recognising the need for a DMZ on the English side. Like the East German government had next to the Berlin Wall. To stop their population escaping to freedom.

[DCI Harry Batt]

As ever, the NI Secretary post is the Westminster equivalent of the Ambassador to Mongolia:

Very weirdly, the preview on search for this post shows a completely different tweet from somebody else.

(I'd share a screenshot of it, but otf won't let me)

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The League of Wales would undoubtedly welcome Shrewsbury, Hereford and Cheltenham:

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1438078225482199050

I for one welcome the liberation of the eastern lands, according to the desires of the population.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMs0luCPw0

also reckon ceding Shropshire and Herefordshire to Wales is probably the easiest and cheapest way of delivering a north-south rail connection #levellingup