The Dis-United Kingdom Thread - (Indyref 2, United Ireland poll, Welsh independence)

[ad hoc]

I get that totally. I'm just thinking out loud really.

To give an example less tainted by baggage, I live in an area of Romania which some advocate for independence for. Personally I think it should have more (or indeed, some) autonomy, but I'd rather that Romania embrace its multi ethnicity and people work together to improve things for all. Technically, I guess, that makes me a unionist.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Cabinet minister does his best to win the Scottish Youth Vote. (warning, contains footage of Michael Gove Raving like it's 1988)

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-club-24862871

[Lang Spoon]

Well he is the modern day George Brown, though with the tired and emotional edge cut through with copious nosebag.

[Patrick Thistle]

I'd rather that Romania embrace its multi ethnicity and people work together to improve things for all. Technically, I guess, that makes me a unionist.

That all sounds reasonable but we don't have a constitution or Bill of Rights here. Parliamentary sovereignty* means the democratic will of citizens in some part of the UK to have their own governing legislatures could just be abolished at the whim of a Prime Minister and the head of state who signs it all off is an unelected nonagenarian and contender for the richest woman in the world given how she inherited large parts of the country.

So, yeah, a Union could be OK, but the Union we are currently in has certain issues that unionists generally refuse to address.


*And that sovereign Parliament has three times the number of unelected members as elected ones.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Actually that's kind of my point. That's how I see "unionism" too, but that's because it seems like those voices are dominant (to the point of being exclusive) in unionist movements (in NI especially). Just because that is the case I don't really understand why there isn't a viewpoint which says "we want to be part of a wider inclusive whole in which everyone works together and is equal whichever "nationality" they identify with "

Utopian I know

The thing about Welsh Labour (or at least the faction of it in power in Wales at the moment) is they're not unionists in the sense that Ulster Unionists are. They are openly in favour of the idea of Wales as a nation, they just think the best future for that nation is as part of the union. They're Unionist-Nationalists, if that makes sense. One of the reasons I think they've been so historically successful is that they've stopped Plaid Cymru having a monopoly on Welsh nationalism. Both the separatism of Plaid and the unionism of Welsh Labour are Welsh in character. Even Tory Unionism - which certainly isn't (welsh) nationalist

Whereas Ulster Unionism is rooted in the Protestant Ascendency: the denial of civil rights and economic justice to Irish Catholics and a segregationist state. There are more and less benign forms of ulster unionism but it is, at its core, a territory carved out for the sole purpose of disenfranchising Catholics.

Northern ireland remaining in union with the UK is according to most opinion polls the current preference of a majority of the population of the territory, but historical unionism hasn't really been interested in what the majority of the population thinks or democracy really either on the island of Ireland or within the United Kingdom.

[Patrick Thistle]

And we are back on the imperial roads thing

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1432703157654675456?s=19

[Patrick Thistle]

Just 32 to go...

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1433446651910361088?s=19

[Patrick Thistle]

Could have gone on the Starmer thread. But also shows how even though Mark Drakeford is the First Minister in the Welsh Government and therefore wields executive powers, that doesn't count for much in Westminster.

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1433413087886024712?s=19

[Lang Spoon]

That's the most stupid idea yet. For a start the devolved admins will (almost) always involve power sharing in some way meaning policies that will diverge from whatever Big Labour want to do, and they actually have to govern as opposed to making forensic points at PMQs.

this basic shit was understood in the late 90s, but fuck sake man. No surprise to see fucking Kinnock put his name to this shit too, he was fucking useless on devolution.

They should propose making Anas Sarwar part of the fucking shadow cabinet too, and completely destroy SLabs chances of recovery forever.

I would hope Burnham and even Khan are savvy enough to tell fucking HQ to fuck off with this shite.

[Gas In Name Only]

No idea whether Marvin Rees would be in the frame for this but can imagine he'd rather not be. He's always studiously ignored national Labour stuff in favour of being Bristol focussed. I've no doubt he's more in tune with Starmer than he was Corbyn but also understands that his position gives him plenty of autonomy away from the national party.

Dan Norris (WoE mayor) otoh is a Blairite piece of shit who would love to get the chance to dictate to the party & country

[Patrick Thistle]

https://twitter.com/llcwlg/status/1434759416356773889?s=19

[Patrick Thistle]

https://twitter.com/nationalwales/status/1434766942821289985?s=19

[Patrick Thistle]

But the Senedd can't put a tax on anything...

https://twitter.com/Welshwhippet/status/1434874030813761536?s=19

[Discordant Resonance]

The DUP have withdrawn from North-South institutions and are threatening to collapse Stormont "within weeks" if there is no revision to the Protocol.

[Patrick Thistle]

The latest potential threat to devolution is that Westminster might take control of health and social care away from the devolved parliaments.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Where have you seen talk of that, PT?

[Patrick Thistle]

It was a comment from one of the Welsh media sites framing the new national insurance hike in the context of the revenues raised being directed by Westminster rather than increases being given to the devolved governments. Everyone in the UK has to pay the increased NI and the suggestion is Westminster will dictate spending across the whole of the UK, which could mean health and social care being removed from the devolved powers.

I mean it's all conjecture but a UK-wide tax to fund NHS England and social care in England isn't going to play well this side of the dyke.

[Patrick Thistle]

Meanwhile the results of this poll are being widely reported as negative for indyref2

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1435908337569341442?s=19

[DCI Harry Batt]

It was a comment from one of the Welsh media sites framing the new national insurance hike in the context of the revenues raised being directed by Westminster rather than increases being given to the devolved governments. Everyone in the UK has to pay the increased NI and the suggestion is Westminster will dictate spending across the whole of the UK, which could mean health and social care being removed from the devolved powers.

I mean it's all conjecture but a UK-wide tax to fund NHS England and social care in England isn't going to play well this side of the dyke.

Ok thanks. I'm intrigued as to how it's going to work - I've never got into the whole Barnett formula thing. I'd not be at all surprised if Johnson attacked devolution in a big way, for sure.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

It was a comment from one of the Welsh media sites framing the new national insurance hike in the context of the revenues raised being directed by Westminster rather than increases being given to the devolved governments. Everyone in the UK has to pay the increased NI and the suggestion is Westminster will dictate spending across the whole of the UK, which could mean health and social care being removed from the devolved powers.

I mean it's all conjecture but a UK-wide tax to fund NHS England and social care in England isn't going to play well this side of the dyke.

From everything I've seen the UK government has raised the tax but funds will be allocated to Wales according to the Barnett formula to spend how they see fit.

It would be better for Wales to have its own revenue raising powers but I don't think this is nonstandard.

[Patrick Thistle]

OK I went for a look to check I hadn't hallucinated it

https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1435234921195393024?s=19

[Patrick Thistle]

So yes, the money will come to Wales but it will be ringfenced for health and social care. There could be additional conditions as well.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

From the BBC the funding will be ringfenced for health and social care, but that doesn't actually mean a great deal in practice.

BBC Wales was briefed at the time that the cash would be legally ringfenced, but commentators cast doubt on whether that would mean a lot in practice.

David Phillips of the IFS suggested that even if the new money is legally restricted, the devolved governments' control of the rest of their budgets mean they could shift other parts of it elsewhere, should they choose to.

And officials at the Welsh end of the M4 stress that nothing has changed in terms of how their funding works, and the Welsh government already gets cash from National Insurance.

Also, part of the £700m does not arise from the National Insurance increase and comes from elsewhere, so, technically, Welsh ministers could spend that how they like, as they usually are allowed to do when their budget increases.

[Patrick Thistle]

Well that's better news. I need to get out of "assume the worst" mode.

[Patrick Thistle]

(I'm a little bit surprised that we haven't had a thread about the NI hike, but then Nef is currently banned and he'd be likely to start a thread on something like that.)