The Refereeing Thread

[Stobart]

It was really hard work with this buffon as my "assistant",

Now the veins popping out his neck while he's roaring the national anthem makes sense.

[imp]

A tearful teenage goalie a heart-wrenching wreck on Saturday after two mistakes in two minutes. Out of sheer modesty I opted to leave out another incident about the fucking brilliant advantage I played on a penalty area foul by the attacking player, which was followed by a goal at the other end of the field around 15 seconds later - all the while the coaches from the team that ended up scoring were screaming at me for not calling the foul. Then they shut up. Still waiting for the thank you card.

[treibeis]

"He screams in frustration, grabs at the net, and kicks the goalpost."

One booking for ungentlemanly conduct for grabbing the net; one booking for ungentlemanly conduct for kicking the goalpost.

You should have sent the little bastard off.

Further, I hope you complained to the home team about the missing comma on the DANKE SCHIRI sticker.

[imp]

I could indeed have strictly implemented the law - but he would have been back after five minutes because that would have been a yellow then a time-penalty. Unless I'd then given him a red for "bealing like a mammy's boy, just like I used to when I was a kid, and I don't like to be reminded of that, so off you go."

Didn't notice the missing comma, but will use my marker next time I'm there to make the appropriate correction. It's actually an official DFB logo, so they're the ones to blame. They'll probably just say, "It was that asshole Grindel, but he's gone now."

[seand]

A lot of crap being spoken over the weekend after rent Alexander-Arnold's handball on the line v Newcastle. Basically Christian Atsu scored the rebound, so there was no issue, but there was a lot of talk of how 'lucky' TAA was that Newcastle scored, saving him from a theoretically red card/penalty double whammy. Which raises the spectre of an attacker making the decision not to score a tap in after an offence in order to get an opponent sent off. If Christian Atsu had a little more time, space and cynicism he could have deliberately poked it wide, or even more classily he could theoretically pick the ball up and say 'no thanks ref, I'll not take the shot, send this chap off and we'll take the pen'. What happens then? TAA has handled on the line, it's denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity, therefore red+pen.... or has he DOGSO'ed if the ball breaks to a striker with an open goal 6 yards out?

[Janik]

The goal scoring opportunity is still there. If the ref plays advantage, they can't go back on that. If the forward fails to make the most of that advantage, well, that is on them. Refs nowadays can wait for a few seconds longer to see if an advantage is possible. However, if a forward who had a tap-in deliberately put it wide I believe the ref would be correct in saying advantage played and squandered, goalkick and only a yellow for unsporting behaviour to the player who handled.

It's also unlikely that a player would turn down a certain goal for a penalty and red card, even if they were afforded the choice. Everyone has experienced teams missing penalties or failing to break down opponents short by a player. I've witnessed a side hold out for a 0-0 draw when they were facing a penalty for handball on the line with 15 minutes remaining, and the red card for that offence was their third of the day. Events like that tell players that passing up a goal in favour of a man advantage is likely a bad trade-off.

[Patrick Thistle]

I keep checking this thread to see if there's a new quiz.

[imp]

I keep checking this thread to see if there's a new quiz.

Ha ha, got you addicted. There's a German FA rules quiz app called 'Schiri-Duell' with the tagline, "So you reckon you know the rules better than your mate? Prove it!" Maybe there's a UK equivalent.

[Janik]

It's actually an official DFB logo, so they're the ones to blame.

Wait a second, so that poster that already appear to be a minimum of effort wasn't even produced by the club involved? This is literally the least they can do. The effort is so thoughtlessly minimal as to be actively disdainful.

[imp]

To be fair to that club, the groundsman (who will almost certainly have been responsible for the sticker) always greets me heartily and makes sure I have everything I need, and always thanks me sincerely when he pays me after the game. That's very much the exception. However, I do get the feeling that the club thinks because they have this genial front man, the rest of them don't need to make much effort. To me the behaviour of the coaches, players and parents is a far more important reflection of what kind of club they are.

[treibeis]

To be fair to that club, the groundsman (who will almost certainly have been responsible for the sticker) always greets me heartily and makes sure I have everything I need, and always thanks me sincerely when he pays me after the game.

One of the semi-regulars at the hut is the Schiedsrichter-Obmann at the club round the corner. He used to be a referee himself - he's over 80 now - which is maybe why he makes the biggest post-match fuss imaginable. The refs get home-made soup for starters and whatever else his wife cooked as a main course - brought to the be-tableclothed table by him personally. Unlimited beer is also on the house.

[imp]

Bloody hell. I get offered the odd beer, bratwurst or cevapcici, but never a two-course meal with table service and an endless bar tab. I'm moving north. Any jobs going in the mini-golf industry?

[treibeis]

Bloody hell. I get offered the odd beer, bratwurst or cevapcici, but never a two-course meal with table service and an endless bar tab. I'm moving north. Any jobs going in the mini-golf industry?

I'm sure he's a/the exception (although his youngest son, who's also a referee, will be taking over from him at some point, so the food-and-drink tradition will undoubtedly continue). As he says, a lot of young referees are hanging up their whistles before they're entitled to vote, so it's in everybody's best interest to go the extra mile.


Before you up sticks, I feel obliged to warn you that Cook is very fond of matjes with (home-made) potato salad. I know you southerners are a bit faddy about eating things that don't have legs. And it's Holsten or Weizenbier only.

[diggedy derek]

Great blog post imp.

[imp]

Thanks, DD.

treibeis - I love matjes and potato salad, especially if it has little bits of gherkin chopped up in it. Not made about Holsten, Weizenbier will be just fine, though. Only trouble about moving is that I equally dislike both HSV and St. Pauli. How far is Jeddeloh II?

[treibeis]

Thanks, DD.

treibeis - I love matjes and potato salad, especially if it has little bits of gherkin chopped up in it. Not made about Holsten, Weizenbier will be just fine, though. Only trouble about moving is that I equally dislike both HSV and St. Pauli. How far is Jeddeloh II?

Jeddeloh II is miles away, in Beatrix von Storch country. You'd be better off going for Drochtersen/Assel. You can do it on a pushbike in about three hours. If you take the ferry to Wischhafen, you get to go through Glückstadt, where you can barely move for matjes restaurants. And on the ferry, they sell old-fashioned fizzy pop in thick glass bottles that weigh more than their contents.

[imp]

It all sounds strangely tempting. Though more for a melancholy autumn weekend break than a long term life choice.

I enjoyed last night's game:

[Sporting]

How do referees decide which end to hold penalty shootouts at?

[Janik]

Re: imps last blog, I wonder how the coach relayed that to his players? It may not have gone exactly how you would have wished...

[anecdote time]
The Hockey Club I play for once won the Regional League's Fair Play award. This went our way as there were a handful of clubs who had got through a full season without having a single player player sin-binned*, and of those clubs we were the biggest in terms of number of teams in the competition. Our equivalent of the Bloke Who Stares responded to this by sending a Well Done message to the whole club, and quietly behind the scenes informing the team captains that he never, ever wanted us to win the award again as it meant we hadn't been playing with sufficient passion! And this was in Hockey, which doesn't suffer anything like as heavily from the Sportsmanship issues that Football does.
* - in Hockey terms a sin-bin = being yellow carded, which is the equivalent of a time penalty in Germany's 'make you own rules up/steal those of other sports you think are a good idea but the International Board won't adopt' flightiness.
[/anecdote time]

[imp]

How do referees decide which end to hold penalty shootouts at?

I ask the goalies which end they'd prefer and if there's agreement then it's quickly settled. If not, toss a coin, but I've no idea what the pros do.

Janik - my elder daughter's team I coached in the US won the Fair Play award seven seasons in a row, but never finished higher than second. I wondered occasionally if some of the parents thought we weren't 'hard' enough, but I never asked them. Of course I told the players it was worth more than winning the league. I think we had two yellow cards in seven years - one was for an accidental handball, and the player came off the field in tears because she thought she'd ruined our spotless disciplinary record.

Isn't the sin-bin being trialled in men's amateur football in the UK right now, for yellow cards? We only have it in youth football, and only then five minutes for the second yellow card offence. It would make my life a lot easier to be able to throw adult players out for ten minutes for their first yellow - I'm convinced it would improve levels of fair play and cut down on dissent and other idiocies.

[Gangster Octopus]

Re: sin-binning at your level; wouldn't you need about twenty stop-watches to keep track of everyone who's sitting it out at any one moment? Or do you just have an amazing memory?

[imp]

Maybe at first - though I reckon they'd soon keep themselves in check. In the youth games, the coaches start yelling after two minutes for their player to come back in, clearly hoping that you forgot to look at your watch when you sent them out. Of course being the consummate pro I would absolutely never ever add an extra minute on for a particularly bolshie player and/or coach...

[Patrick Thistle]

Sin binning would work if players returned at the nearest five minutes after they've served their "time". So if you get booked on 4 minutes you come back on after 15. If you get booked on 8 minutes you come back on after 20 minutes, and so on. The most a player will be off the pitch is 14 minutes. It's not exactly fair, but, hey, stop kicking people or cheating then.

[Janik]

Re: sin-binning at your level; wouldn't you need about twenty stop-watches to keep track of everyone who's sitting it out at any one moment? Or do you just have an amazing memory?

Ten yellow cards is a high number, even for a notably narky game of Football. That adds up to 100 minutes of sin-bin time. Or ~1 player off the pitch at any one time. Due to the lumpiness of real life it might tot up to two or three at some points, but if the ref notes the time the each player went off, then it's handleable.

Take the infamous Holland-Portugal game at the 2006 World Cup. That had 16 yellow cards, four of which went to players already on a yellow (i.e. yellow-reds). If the first yellows had meant 10 minutes in the bin, this is what the ref, Ivanov, would have had to keep on top of [or more like a designated official responsible for timing this at the pro level]

2' Holland -> 1 man down (van Bommel off) = 1 in total off
7' Holland -> 2 men down (Boulahrouz off) = 2 in total off
12' Holland -> 1 man down (van Bommel back) = 1 in total off
17' Holland -> Full strength (Boulahrouz back) = 0 in total off
20' Portugal -> 1 man down (Maniche off) = 1 in total off
30' Portugal -> Full strength (Maniche back) = 0 in total off
31' Portugal -> 1 man down (Costinha off) = 1 in total off
41' Portugal -> Full strength (Costinha back) = 0 in total off
45+1' Portugal -> Reduced to 10 permanently (Costinha sent off) = 1 permanently off, 0 in the bin

Most of the first half with a player in the bin, but only 5 minutes with two there at once.

50' Portugal -> 1 extra man down (Petit off) = 1 permanently off, 1 in the bin
59' Holland -> 1 man down (van Bronckhorst off) = 1 permanently off, 2 in the bin
60' Portugal -> 1 extra man down (Petit back, Luis Figo off) = 1 permanently off, 2 in the bin
63' Holland -> Reduced to 10 permanently (Boulahrouz sent off) = 2 permanently off, 2 in the bin
69' Holland -> Full (reduced) strength (van Bronckhorst back) = 2 permanently off, 1 in the bin
70' Portugal -> Full (reduced) strength (Luis Figo back) = 2 permanently off, 0 in the bin

Again, never more than two players on the timer at once. But now things go a bit nuts...

73' Holland and Portugal -> both 1 extra man down (Snijder and Deco both off) = 2 permanently off, 2 in the bin
74' Holland -> 2 extra men down (van der Vaart off) = 2 permanently off, 3 in the bin
76' Portugal -> 3 extra men down (Ricardo and Nuno Valente both off) = 2 permanently off, 5(!) in the bin
78' Portugal -> Reduced to 9 permanently (Deco sent off (whilst already in the bin!)) = 3 permanently off, 4 in the bin
83' Holland -> 1 extra man down (Snijder back) = 3 permanently off, 3 in the bin
84' Holland -> Full (reduced) strength (van der Vaart back) = 3 permanently off, 2 in the bin
86' Portugal -> Full (reduced) strength (Ricardo and Nuno Valente both back) = 3 permanently off, 0 in the bin
90+5' Holland -> Reduced to 9 permanently (van Bronckhorst sent off) = 4 permanently off, 0 in the bin
Full-time -> Go and have a lie down!

A brief period (two minutes) with five players in the sin bin! That is probably too much for one man to cope with on his own. But this is a hyper-extreme scenario. And the chances are that the game would not have panned out like this if both teams kept losing players at such a rate. Portugal would have been down to 7 at one point!

[Gangster Octopus]

I was deliberately over-egging it, but the logistics won't be too easy. Especially if there's been some sort of multi-player brawl happening.