Israel

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1589264847052886017?s=20&t=6UG628lG2UI1ZJLCJVrCBw

[Balderdasha]

https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1589264847052886017?s=20&t=6UG628lG2UI1ZJLCJVrCBw

I'm going to need a bit more explanation here (and I'm aware that these questions are going to come across as very ignorant and I could just Google them, but please bear with me).

What is the IHRA?

What is the IHRA's definition of antisemitism?

What was item 66? (The full text in the image gets cut off).

Is the UK voting against item 66 a good thing or a bad thing? Hard to tell from that list who's on the moral side e.g. I'd tend to think that if the UK, US, Italy and Hungary are collectively voting against something then that something would have been a good thing, but then Israel, Russia, Zimbabwe and India voted for it...

[Nefertiti2]

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance came up with a "Non binding Working definition of antisemitism"

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Which has been criticised by many as being so vague as to be meaningless/

They added some examples

which include some very contentious items- preventing criticism of Israel and conflating Israel with jews (whislt at the same time saying that this conflation is itself antisemitic.

It is apparently antisemitic to say that " the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor."

The state of Israel is a racist endeavour as your family know only too well,

To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

This was what is been adopted by all those supporting Israel t the UN. critics say is used to prevent any discussion of Palestine/ Palestinian rights. it is certainly being weaponised by the Israeli governement to prevent use of the term "apartheid. Far from being Non binding- it's being used to expel people fromthe Labour Party and fire them in Germany or the US- including Jewish critics of israel.

A number of Jewish Scholars of antisemitism and the Holocaust wrote the Jerusalem Declaration to deal with the vagueness of the definition and be more specific about criticism of Israel or zioniam . But saying you prefer the Jersualem declaration is already being defined as anti semitic.

Moreover the blood libel- a calumny that Jews murdered gentile children to use their blood in religious rituals that parodied Communion has been redefined to say that it's anitsemitic to accuse Israeli Army of killing children - even when their bombs kill hundreds in gaza.

Likewise "equiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation" allows all forms of whataboutery since any critique of Israel which is not also made of , say, Saudi Arabia or Russia is automatically discredited. (Israel has good relationships with both these countries, just as it did with apartheid South Africa.)

[Tactical Genius]

I'm not sure if I have any interest getting involved in other people's disagreements, but thanks for thinking of me.

I was going to ask questions about something else, however.

It wasn't a disagreement and i assume you know who and what I am on about.

I find it interesting that someone who (looking at their posting) has an opinion on almost everything and isn't afraid to give it (and there is nothing wrong with this) suddenly is shy of giving an opinion.

I will address this on the appropriate thread.

[Balderdasha]

It wasn't a disagreement and i assume you know who and what I am on about.

I don't. I found it quite a cryptic allusion. I tried searching the phrase that you mentioned and couldn't find it.

[Tactical Genius]

......Back to topic and my thoughts on Kanye..............

I have not listened to his interviews on Drink Champs or other sources. I really have no time for his ramblings as he is clearly going through some mental issues and like 99% of black people he isn't worth listening to as whatever thing he says you might agree with in certain contexts (like slavery was a choice) he is sure to follow it up with a dozen things that will leave you thinking WTF (White Lives Matter).

I have no issues with Jewish people being upset with his words and wanting to "cancel" him.
However, I think this goes well beyond Kanye's anti-semitic remarks. The way he has been quickly and comprehensively shutdown financially indicates (to me at least) that these plans were in place for a long time and they were just waiting for a convenient reason to pull his chain. Some of the organisations that have dropped him have very little to do with Jewish people.

I would be interested to see if any other "anti-semite" has been shut down so quickly or efficiently as this, this is a genuine question BTW as this is not an area i know much about.

[Balderdasha]

......Back to topic and my thoughts on Kanye..............
I have not listened to his interviews on Drink Champs or other sources. I really have no time for his ramblings as he is clearly going through some mental issues and like 99% of black people he isn't worth listening to as whatever thing he says you might agree with in certain contexts (like slavery was a choice) he is sure to follow it up with a dozen things that will leave you thinking WTF (White Lives Matter).

I have no issues with Jewish people being upset with his words and wanting to "cancel" him.
However, I think this goes well beyond Kanye's anti-semitic remarks. The way he has been quickly and comprehensively shutdown financially indicates (to me at least) that these plans were in place for a long time and they were just waiting for a convenient reason to pull his chain. Some of the organisations that have dropped him have very little to do with Jewish people.

I would be interested to see if any other "anti-semite" has been shut down so quickly or efficiently as this, this is a genuine question BTW as this is not an area i know much about.

99% of black people aren't worth listening to?!?! I'm pretty sure you'd have an issue with that if any other poster said it.

Or do you think that 99% of all people aren't worth listening to? I'd be more likely to agree with that.

[Balderdasha]

Also, while he may well be "going through some mental issues", that, in and of itself, is not a reason not to listen to him.

Kanye's views are dreadful when he's not having mental issues. Many people who are going through mental issues are well worth listening to.

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/NTarnopolsky/status/1589943949396885506?s=20&t=ecboX7flyy_s96460H5wsQ

[ursus arctos]

Jesus Fucking Christ

[WOM]

Some of the organisations that have dropped him have very little to do with Jewish people.

Many of the people wearing Black Lives Matter t-shirts aren't even Black...

[Tactical Genius]

99% of black people aren't worth listening to?!?! I'm pretty sure you'd have an issue with that if any other poster said it.

Or do you think that 99% of all people aren't worth listening to? I'd be more likely to agree with that.

No 99% of black people do not listen to what Kanye says. He has been an embarrassment for well over a decade. Probably when he started rolling back his post Katrina comments and he has got steadily worse since.

Bad phrasing on my part

[Tactical Genius]

Also, while he may well be "going through some mental issues", that, in and of itself, is not a reason not to listen to him.

Kanye's views are dreadful when he's not having mental issues. Many people who are going through mental issues are well worth listening to.

"Listening to" insofar as someone who you should follow or guide your thoughts or actions.

I'm not an expert on mental issues and I do not know when his started. Maybe you do.
As I said in the original post, he sometimes sounds logical and coherent only to follow up with a clear 180 with some stuff that I really don't agree with.
I don't know when he is on or off his meds or "going through an episode" (replace with the appropriate term). I just wish someone responsible around him would confiscate his communication device and help him get better for his sake and his kids.
The media circus around him fishing for incendiary quotes so they can hang him is really really sad and all these organisations and people who claim to give a shite about mental should really step in and provide assistance.

[Tactical Genius]

Many of the people wearing Black Lives Matter t-shirts aren't even Black...

That's my point.
Many people who wore BLM t-shirts didn't give two hoots about black people in the same way many of these organisations who are blackballing Kanye care about Jewish people.
Or all suspected anti-Semites would be getting the same work.
Or are they and I am just missing it?

[WOM]

I just wish someone responsible around him would confiscate his communication device and help him get better for his sake and his kids.

Those who live with people experiencing addiction and mental health issues spend their entire lives trying to help the person get better. You can only do as much as they'll allow you to do.

[WOM]

That's my point.
Many people who wore BLM t-shirts didn't give two hoots about black people in the same way many of these organisations who are blackballing Kanye care about Jewish people.
Or all suspected anti-Semites would be getting the same work.
Or are they and I am just missing it?

The organizations who are un-investing in KW are the ones who invested in him originally, so that's why their retreats are newsworthy. Anyone can denounce him...but to cut your significant investment and walk away makes a statement.

My point was about 'have very little to do with'. You don't need to have a lot to do with a group to see injustice and discrimination and then speak up. Yes, many had never spoken up previously, and that's fine, too. Everyone arrives at a different time.

[Tactical Genius]

The organizations who are un-investing in KW are the ones who invested in him originally, so that's why their retreats are newsworthy. Anyone can denounce him...but to cut your significant investment and walk away makes a statement.

My point was about 'have very little to do with'. You don't need to have a lot to do with a group to see injustice and discrimination and then speak up. Yes, many had never spoken up previously, and that's fine, too. Everyone arrives at a different time.

And I don't have an issue with that at all. Are others who make offensive anti-Semitic comments treated the same and with the same speed. If they are, then cool if not, then the question becomes why not and leads to the suspicion this is beyond anti-Semitism.
Similar to the treatment of Corbyn-ite labour party allies whilst non allies or Tories accused of similar were not treated the same.

[ursus arctos]

I think that the primary issue with finding comparable cases is that no one with a similar media profile and sponsorship portfolio has engaged in this as openly since the era Henry Ford (who was of course much, much worse).

There are certainly a meaningful number of "alt right" figures (Duke, Spencer, Anglin, Auernheimer, etc*) who have been decried for being vicious anti-Semites, but none of them had adidas or Balenciaga lines.

* There is a longish list in this ADL piece from 2017

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...aming-the-hate

[ursus arctos]

That said, John Galliano is worth looking at.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...aught-on-video

[WOM]

And I don't have an issue with that at all. Are others who make offensive anti-Semitic comments treated the same and with the same speed.

Depends on whether they have a ton of corporate sponsors or not. Or the size / scale of influence that KW does. I'm trying to think of someone half-way comparable to him.

[Balderdasha]

"Listening to" insofar as someone who you should follow or guide your thoughts or actions.

I'm not an expert on mental issues and I do not know when his started. Maybe you do.
As I said in the original post, he sometimes sounds logical and coherent only to follow up with a clear 180 with some stuff that I really don't agree with.
I don't know when he is on or off his meds or "going through an episode" (replace with the appropriate term). I just wish someone responsible around him would confiscate his communication device and help him get better for his sake and his kids.
The media circus around him fishing for incendiary quotes so they can hang him is really really sad and all these organisations and people who claim to give a shite about mental should really step in and provide assistance.

It's an interesting question.

I guess I'm relatively unusual in that I can generally describe what is happening to me and distinguish between reality and symptoms until very far into an episode. So I wouldn't want people to dismiss my views just because I was going through a mental issue. I'm very fortunate to live in a country where the mental health professionals tend to involve me in my own care and treat me with respect and as if I am competent (though I am well aware that a large part of this is because I'm white, well-spoken, financially secure, and as soon as somebody finds out what my job is or where my university degree is from they suddenly become bizarrely deferential). Mental health staff have always tried to gain my consent for treatments and to explain what is going on, even at points where I was not able to understand what was happening. I am inordinately grateful for this.

However, I absolutely reach points where what I'm saying, no matter how articulately, is utter nonsense. If I'm low and telling people that I don't love my kids, or high and telling people that I have achieved Buddhist enlightenment, it would not be helpful for people to believe me and agree with my delusions.

[Balderdasha]

No 99% of black people do not listen to what Kanye says. He has been an embarrassment for well over a decade. Probably when he started rolling back his post Katrina comments and he has got steadily worse since.

Bad phrasing on my part

This makes way more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

It did seem like a very unlikely thing for you to say.

[Balderdasha]

In terms of when Kanye's mental health problems started, I don't know the specific details of his case, but I can talk more generally about bipolar.

Symptoms often start fairly young, though it can be a very long time before an individual receives any daignosis, let alone an accurate one.

In my own case, looking back I can see that I had symptoms from at least about age 13, if not earlier. I was first diagnosed with depression at age 18, and again with post-natal depression at age 31, both of which were misdiagnoses. Bipolar is often misdiagnosed as depression because you only go to the GP with the lows (which suck) not the highs (which are often enjoyable right up until the point where they start fucking up your life or lead to full blown psychosis). I wasn't accurately diagnosed until I was 33, seven years ago, and I'm still learning a lot about the condition and how to manage it well now.

People who have bipolar are notoriously non-compliant with medication. Partly because the side effects are so horrible. Partly because they turn you into a zombie and we miss the highs and lows. Partly because well-meaning friends and relatives often encourage us to come off medication and try managing it just through general healthy lifestyle like diet and exercise. Diet, exercise, sleep, therapy, these are all very important components of me being able to stay well, but if not combined with the right medication, they're about as effective as a chocolate teaspoon.

[Balderdasha]

Also, bipolar often tends to get worse in your thirties, likely because you're having to deal with a lot more responsibilities. In women, it's quite likely to get worse when you have children, partly due to the hormonal changes. Kanye is 45, so if he started getting worse around ten years ago, and if North West is 9 years old, that's a very typical progression for bipolar.

If I had never had children, it's possible that I might have been able to continue for a much longer time with my existing coping strategies. Though they were already starting to fail me at work due to the associated stresses, which partly influenced my decision to leave my full-time career and take a break shortly before I fell pregnant. My husband successfully coached me through that transition.

My family continue to think that he caused my psychosis, whereas the reality is that, without him, I likely would have continued on my existing trajectory at work, which would have led to me either being sacked (due to my increasingly erratic output and emotional volatility) or had a breakdown and potential psychotic episode three years earlier than I did.

[Tactical Genius]

Those who live with people experiencing addiction and mental health issues spend their entire lives trying to help the person get better. You can only do as much as they'll allow you to do.

Agreed, I suspect this is the problem with KW, the two most influential people in his life are dead and divorced from him. I am not sure if he has anyone in his life that has the power to say no and take away his mobile device and stop him doing interviews to prevent him incriminating himself.

At least Lebron had the sense to not air the interview with Kanye (although this may be driven by self-interest)