The political ramifications of the Sash

[anton pulisov]

The political ramifications of the Sash

And whilst you can explain the tribal aspect of politics in the north easily enough it doesn’t explain the lack of conventional left/right politics in the south where I’d assume exclusion for reasons other than class was less likely.

The Republic has three main parties: Centre-right populism, centre-right conservatism and a smaller centre-left party. It's not unusual at all. The UK and USA both have similar politics.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The political ramifications of the Sash

I disputed AIATL's eye-rolling lunatic claim that all activity of the Catholic church ever had beenan extended political power-grab. I said that in the specific case of the Spanish Civil War, while it was true that the institutional church in the main supported the fascists, that was very much weaker than what he had been claiming. The idea that the Church en toto had "almost entirely" taken one particular side on the conflict, which was the claim I disputed, I pointed out had no empirical basis. Why you all read that as saying "the RCC didn't mostly support Franco", I cannot begin to fathom.

is that it toro? I appreciate that you have to deal with a lot of cognitive dissonance trying to square your trendy lefty political views with your catholicism. but that is ridiculous hairsplitting, even for you.

for a start, I don't think that claiming that the Roman catholic church for the greatest part of its history has been mostly interested in exercising power and control is that wide eyed and lunatic. Any cursory examination of Papal history will quickly reveal this to be so. Shit, read any Irish history book.

Actually Given the incredibly politically powerful status of the RCC since the roman empire, surely the onus is on you to demonstrate that the RCC hasn't been primarily a long lengthy powergrab. I mean you have seen the vatican haven't you?

Indeed I find your defence that some ethnic catholics somewhere didn't support franco at some point, rather embarrassing.

You have this odd idea that roman catholicism is all about conscience and occasionally dissent. You are drawing from your personal experience and this experience of catholicism is almost entirely a function of your class, and the schools you have attended. While the jesuits, and to a lesser extent the holy ghost fathers encouraged a certain amount of thought amongst the wealthy children of the merchant class at their fee paying schools, 99.9% of catholics have traditionally had discipline, authority and rigid dogmatism enforced upon them, traditionally at the end of a stick.

part of the reason that so many people found your contentions about the spanish civil war a bit puzzling is because, well, they're so historically inaccurate, and well.... just pointless.

The idea that the Church en toto had "almost entirely" taken one particular side on the conflict, which was the claim I disputed, I pointed out had no empirical basis.

this bit in particular is ridiculous. The institutional catholic church had fundamental problems dating back to the enthusiastic separation of church and state in the 1931 constitution.

The Catholic church also loathed to left wing spanish goverments because of their connection with soviet Russia, so when the civil war started to kick off, and people were shooting priests this line only hardened further. All over europe priests were standing up in pulpits and condemning the godless spanish government who were killing priests and nuns, and praising Franco.

My father remembers being dragged down to the missions in the 50's where the redemptorists would come in and give the whole don't be committing X and Y sins (sins that the people would never have heard of) before going into lengthy lectures about the dangers of godless communism and then talking about the martyrs of the spanish civil war.

lets just say that there was very little support for the Spanish republican government among the vast majority of mass-going catholics by the time that the "Martyrs of the spanish civil war" lecture was over. And this was happening in every church all across the RCC.

Indeed 7000 clergy were killed during the Spanish civil war, and to show that these martyrs of the spanish civil war haven't slipped far from the mind of the RCC, JP II beatified over a thousand of them, and Benny beatified 500 of them this time last year.

I have no idea what your quibble is. That not every single ethnic catholic opposed the republican government? that after a safe period of 30 years or so, a small minority of clergy might have voiced some objections to the falangist rule?

either way, the intensity of your squawking outrage seems to be inversely proportional to the strength of your argument.

[E10 Rifle]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Is this the right thread to dip in and make a wry, despairing comment that this week has proven that the NI parties are at least heart-warmingly united in their reactionary attitudes towards women's reproductive rights? Well, it is now.

[Brandenburger Toro]

The political ramifications of the Sash

It is a general law of the universe that any dispute with AIATL on the subject of the Catholic Church will eventually come down to a barely coherent screed composed of ad hominem insults and anecdotes from his father's childhood.

E10 - indeed.

[Guest]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Nothing to add as I would think that I’d seriously be out of my depth, but fair play to everyone for making this an excellent read.
That’s the last you will hear of me arse licking though. So saviour it.
Jumping back to Franco for a bit though. The book “Granny made me an anarchist” by Stuart Christie is pretty good and touches on the catholic churches support of the regime while he was imprisoned there for his failed attempt to assassinate Franco.

[Gangster Octopus]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Mr Winker wrote:

he was imprisoned there for his failed attempt to assassinate Franco.

Deserves locking up for failing...

[Guest]

The political ramifications of the Sash

The whole thing was a comedy of errors really. Christie at that point was an impressionable young man who was very lucky that all he got was a jail sentence, but yeah, shame he didn’t succeed.

[Duncan Gardner]

The political ramifications of the Sash

E10 Rifle wrote:

this week has proven that the NI parties are at least heart-warmingly united in their reactionary attitudes towards women's reproductive rights

Aye, I'm all aglow.

Any chance of the Westminster village voting through the change anyway during our devolution's next, inevitable suspension?

Other not-quite-directly-related-to-partition political news from Ultonia; embattled schools tsarina Catriona Ruane has a fight on two fronts as Catholic schools insist on selection, but my man at Stormont is confident the Stadium of shite plans for Long Kesh will be abandoned anytime now.