The political ramifications of the Sash

[Wyatt Earp]

Is Ulster Unionism inevitably reactionary, or is there scope for a genuinely progressive Protestant movement along the lines of that historically linked to Nonconformism in England and Wales? Then?

[E10 Rifle]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Bastard, Wyatt. You beat me to it.

[Kusal Flyer]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Oi! Watch it, yer cheeky cnuts

You pair would have loved the sing-along mix tape that serenaded our coach back from the stadium in Maribor to Ljubljana where most fans stayed. From memory, it included

Sweet Norniron (good times never seemed so good)
Amarillo
Billy Ray Cyrus
Depeche Mode (plinky-plonk period)
Rhinestone cowboy
et etc.

Thanks to Alastair (owner of gats to welcome TG's and dressed in an emu costume).

[Spearmint Rhino]

The political ramifications of the Sash

It's a weird one, isn't it. In the details of its doctrine, Protestantism is more progressive than Roman Catholicism (with usual caveats about bald men fighting over a comb), but within the Nirish context, the Left has traditionally sided with the Catholics.

The way I see it, they had (and maybe still have) a legitimate cause as an oppressed and discriminated-against minority... but their religion sucks, and Oliver Cromwell was well within his rights to kick Irish arse. It's possible to hold both those views.

[E10 Rifle]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Oliver Cromwell was well within his rights to kick Irish arse

How many deaths is 'well within his rights'? The left generally has, rightly, taken the view that kicking the shit out of foreigners for the purposes of nicking their land is a bit, well, not on.

[Wyatt Earp]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Indeed. The general point--that you can defend a community whose religion you think sucks--is on the money, but Cromwell was a murderous cunt, even by the exacting standards of the time. I know there's a lot of myth mixed up in the standard Irish-nationalist account of Drogheda and so on, but even when you strip away the myth it's bad enough.

[Brandenburger Toro]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Fucking indeed.

Also;

In the details of its doctrine, Protestantism is more progressive than Roman Catholicism

Well, this suggests minimal doctrinal engagement with either.

[Felicity, I guess so]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Didn't they sing (rather appropriately...) Encore une fois?

[Banana Banana]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Didn't Lenin write something about how to win over royalist workers?

Wouldn't we be foolish to think that the differences in N Ireland were due to religious belief? When it's an economic distinction caused historically by rewarding one community with a better status at the expense of the other.

The fighting is about economic status, not religion.

[Spearmint Rhino]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Methinks many of you are buying uncritically into the received Republican line on Irish history. I've got Irish friends who were taught, as fact, in school history lessons that women and children were slaughtered at the siege of Drogheda, when actually (at least, according to Schama and, in turn, his sources) the dead were mainly troops.*

The Irish were siding with the Scots and English loyalists, plotting to reinstate the British monarchy (much in the manner of the British-American attempt, via the proxy of the White Russians, to reverse the Revolution). Cromwell was right to strike against that alliance before it could strike against him.

*A rare example where history is written by the losers...

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Unionism is a political philosophy that is utterly without merit, which ever way you slice it, and Orangeism is one of the most pointless joyless, miserably negative political 'philosophy' certainly in western Europe.

NI Protestants who actually believe, believe in a weird, literal form of nonsense. It's all about being rigid and defensive because you are under siege. it's all about you standing up by yourself and being the best bigot you can be, because you can't trust anyone, particularly your own side.

Roman catholicism seems to just make up a lot of itself as it goes along, and is primarily concerned with counting heads and being in power and having control over people. It only looks like the religion of the oppressed in Northern ireland because it was in a minority. When it was in a majority in the south it revealed itself to be a monstrous hateful excressence, grinding the people under it's heel, and protecting the rapists of the vulnerable.

cromwell killed 25% of the Irish population within 4 years of his arrival in Ireland. Wasn't that a bit excessive SR? and while he did kill 2,800 members of the garrison at drogheda, the 700 civilians and clergy was a little high. As was the killing of 1500 civilians at the battle of wexford, while negotiating surrender.

While cromwell does have his statue outside the House of Parliament, it is worth pointing out that he was a manic depressive, religious fundamentalist sectarian bigot, whose military decisions were coloured by his enormous moodswings, which helped contribute to his taste for ethnic cleansing and slaughter of civilians. If he wasn't english, he would be reviled as a monster.

[Wyatt Earp]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

Methinks many of you are buying uncritically into the received Republican line on Irish history.

I assure you I'm not; that was what I meant by the "myth" thing.

But Cromwell did kill the Millmount garrison, after they'd surrendered and been disarmed. And civilians were killed too; around 700 at a conservative estimate, and that's not counting the town's clergy, who were mostly just executed where they stood.

More importantly, in the whole campaign, about one in six of the population was either killed or driven into exile.

[Wyatt Earp]

The political ramifications of the Sash

(One could mount a David-Irving-style defence of Cromwell, I guess, claiming that Ireton and that lot did most of the killing of civilians, when Cromwell had returned to England, without telling him they were going to. But that would have about as much credibility as Irving.)

[Spearmint Rhino]

The political ramifications of the Sash

And I am the Life wrote:

Unionism is a political philosophy that is utterly without merit, which ever way you slice it, and Orangeism is one of the most pointless joyless, miserably negative political 'philosophy' certainly in western Europe.

NI Protestants who actually believe, believe in a weird, literal form of nonsense. It's all about being rigid and defensive because you are under siege. it's all about you standing up by yourself and being the best bigot you can be, because you can't trust anyone, particularly your own side.

Roman catholicism seems to just make up a lot of itself as it goes along, and is primarily concerned with counting heads and being in power and having control over people. It only looks like the religion of the oppressed in Northern ireland because it was in a minority. When it was in a majority in the south it revealed itself to be a monstrous hateful excressence, grinding the people under it's heel, and protecting the rapists of the vulnerable.

cromwell killed 25% of the Irish population within 4 years of his arrival in Ireland. Wasn't that a bit excessive SR? and while he did kill 2,800 members of the garrison at drogheda, the 700 civilians and clergy was a little high. As was the killing of 1500 civilians at the battle of wexford, while negotiating surrender.

While cromwell does have his statue outside the House of Parliament, it is worth pointing out that he was a manic depressive, religious fundamentalist sectarian bigot, whose military decisions were coloured by his enormous moodswings, which helped contribute to his taste for ethnic cleansing and slaughter of civilians. If he wasn't english, he would be reviled as a monster.

Nobody's perfect.

No but seriously. The death toll is a function of the way wars were being fought in that century. For better or worse (clue: worse), the indigenous peasantry were locked in obeisance and serfdom to the Irish Catholic warlords, who - if they hadn't been routed on home soil - would have been dispatched to the British mainland and done their own slaughtering there, all in the name of reinstating the King.

On balance, I don't have much trouble choosing sides.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Cromwell's attitudes to Ireland were shaped by some rather impressive propaganda that turned the couple of thousand Protestant deaths in the rebellion of 1641 to 200,000. He arrived with a couple of scores to settle, and he set about them with the zealotry of a mad bigot.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The political ramifications of the Sash

[i]No but seriously. The death toll is a function of the way wars were being fought in that century.

You see, that's the point. They weren't. It is unusual to kill over 20% of the population of a country in four years. The ethnic cleansing was on a different scale to anywhere else either.

the indigenous peasantry were locked in obeisance and serfdom to the Irish Catholic warlords

Er, Ireland was ruled by a mixture of Irish chieftains mostly in ulster, Royalist Protestants, and the confederate Catholics.

The only thing that the Cromwellian campaign changed about this was to replace any catholics with wealth, or protestant royalists, with officers in the Model army. From the point of view of the oppressed Catholic masses, the major effect of the cromwellian invasion, was that over 20% of them were now dead, most of the rest were starving, and huge numbers of them had been driven off their land and sent to farm in vastly inferior land. The alternative was to be sent to barbados, where 98% of settlers were dead before their third year.

they hadn't been routed on home soil - would have been dispatched to the British mainland and done their own slaughtering there, all in the name of reinstating the King.

This is a bit if a stretch, a huge stretch. all of the factions in Ireland were struggling with each other for power. the prospects of an invasion from Ireland were miniscule.

Cromwell needed to restore his popularity after executing charles I, Anti-Irish feeling in England was enormous, Cromwell hated Catholics, He needed to pay his loyal troops somehow, killing Irish people was a big vote winner in England. Irish privateers based in Wexford were making trade difficult in and out of London, but the realistic fear of an invasion from Ireland was small.

[Spearmint Rhino]

The political ramifications of the Sash

There are many who would dispute your figures. (Although to do so, in the company of a lot of Irish people, gets you put in the same class as a Holocaust denier.)

[Brandenburger Toro]

The political ramifications of the Sash

That, SR, is because you are now entering the class of a holocaust denier.

The numbers are well attested. And it's not just the deaths - there's also the forced resettlement. I suppose "To Hell Or To Connacht" was the invention of monarchist religious crazies as well?

It was full-scale ethnic cleansing avant la lettre, and no amount of proto-tankie halfwittery is going to change that.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The political ramifications of the Sash

I don't think that there are that many people that would dispute the figures that much. Part of the problem with disputing them is that Cromwell and his generals reported these figures with pride. The stated purpose of the campaign against the tories was to kill all of those who might give them succour. Remember, a huge proportion of the stated reasons for the campaign was for revenge.

The problem is that Cromwell is historically seen as one of the key figures in the history of Britain, the father of parliamentary democracy. Perhaps more recognition should be given in the teaching of english history to the more unfortunate aspects of his character....that he was a mentally unstable, mass murdering, ethnic cleansing, undemocratic sectarian Religious bigot.

[Brandenburger Toro]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Hush now, AIATL. He may be a mentally unstable, mass murdering, ethnic cleansing, undemocratic sectarian Religious bigot, but he's SR's mentally unstable, mass murdering, ethnic cleansing, undemocratic sectarian Religious bigot.

[Just Say No To Vorderman]

The political ramifications of the Sash

might I just chip in here and say that the original rebellions against the english involved both catholics and protestants and it was to counter the poor and workers the english encouraged the religous divide..something the catholic church were all to willing to go along with as long as they kept their control over schooling

[Wyatt Earp]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Just Say No To Vorderman wrote:

might I just chip in here and say that the original rebellions against the english involved both catholics and protestants and it was to counter the poor and workers the english encouraged the religous divide..something the catholic church were all to willing to go along with as long as they kept their control over schooling

What period are we talking about here?

[Kusal Flyer]

The political ramifications of the Sash

In the Graun a few weeks ago (I'll remember the details in a minute), Ronan Bennett favorably reviewed a new book suggesting, broadly that Nol's crimes were as bad as Southern Irish folklore often suggests.

Although RB spoils the story slightly by claiming Bertie Ahern burst into tears discussing it. Must have been the day his secretary broke under cross-examination about their thieving or something.

Here's another considered defence of Cromwell from a notorious unionist bigot.

http://www.onetouchfootball.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001416

[Brandenburger Toro]

The political ramifications of the Sash

Ah, well if Justin defends him...

[Kusal Flyer]

The political ramifications of the Sash

The way I see it, they had (and maybe still have) a legitimate cause as an oppressed and discriminated-against minority

They had a legitimate cause before and during the Stormont regime to 1972. They continued to fight their self-styled economic war for decades afterward regardless that their reasonable grievances had been basically settled.

The fighting is about economic status, not religion

Plenty- the majority- of Prods were poor, both historically and during the Troublings. I wouldn't understate how much it was about nationality, and the 17th-18th century equivalent.

Unionism is a political philosophy that is utterly without merit, which ever way you slice it

Look, if it keeps us apart from stoned Culchie halfwits, we can forgive a lot else.

impressive propaganda that turned the couple of thousand Protestant deaths in the rebellion of 1641 to 200,000. He arrived with a couple of scores to settle, and he set about them with the zealotry of a mad bigot

Aye, that earlier sounds about right. Do we have an agreed figure for Nol's own excesses? A sixth dead or exiled sounds plausible, a quarter dead doesn't.

If he wasn't english, he would be reviled as a monster

But he is reviled as a monster, albeit to an arguably hysterical extent in Southern Ireland. Where his excesses have been taught and discussed almost as if they were within living memory, or a justification for Jack Charlton turning up for games with eight British players in the team. You don't hear Germans and French moaning about, say the Edict of Nantes or Peace of Westfalen in the same way, although the butchery and death toll around both was comparable.