The Brexit Thread

[Nefertiti2]

why not swap it for setting the attack dogs in tbh Labou Party , the centre leftists, the commentariat on the
Conservatives,.

Britains attitude to EU needed fixing. Blair didn't go there, He only did easy things that met wit Murdoch approval..

[Diable Rouge]

One wonders at the ignorance of Paul Mason - claims Corbyn is right on the EEA because continued membership "prevents nationalisation" - has he been to France lately?

[Tubby Isaacs]

The idea you'd fuck up Northern Ireland and lose shedloads of trade because "nationalization" is absolutely ridiculous anyway.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Wren-Lewis not very happy with Labour.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2...rexit-and.html

I have always been worried, since my time on Labour’s EAC, that the leadership underestimated the damage leaving the SM could do.

Indeed.

[NHH]

There is probably a distrinction to be drawn between countries grandfathering nationally-owned enterprises into current rules, and countries nationalising currently privately-owned sectors of the economy. I could be wrong, but the EU might have been fine with us having a nationalised rail system, but once privatised, it's against the rules for the state to use its resources to renationalise.

[Nefertiti2]

Manuel Cortes puts the argument slightly differently.

I agree with him Btw.

NHh is right. The new SPD German Finance Minister has just shown himself fiscally to the right of Schäuble.

[Flynnie]

I smell a rat with that Times article. It’s too convenient to the Tory narrative, and there are scores of articles pointing out that EU member states have renationalised whatever many times, and there are plenty of articles in TFEU that give outs to nationalised industries, particularly key ones. state aid has been something the EU and member states have been fighting about since the 50s, and the member states almost always win.

The Thatcher stuff is particularly obvious as a giveaway, the other member states strongly disliked her and her antifederalism.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

There is probably a distrinction to be drawn between countries grandfathering nationally-owned enterprises into current rules, and countries nationalising currently privately-owned sectors of the economy. I could be wrong, but the EU might have been fine with us having a nationalised rail system, but once privatised, it's against the rules for the state to use its resources to renationalise.

I'm not sure that it would be that much of a problem to be honest. The issue with Nationalization arises from the EU's competition rules. I.e. Is the Govt entering into a market where there is a variety of suppliers, which it will then undermine through the use of its unlimited resources. Rail franchise operators are local monopolies. So that doesn't really apply. It would require some finesse, but the EU allows govts do quite a wide range of things, provided they make the effort to play ball and get what they want under the rules. It's more about how you construct the thing you want to do.

[Diable Rouge]

The Tory backlash against JRM begins:

https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalisl...73612345761792

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm not sure that it would be that much of a problem to be honest. The issue with Nationalization arises from the EU's competition rules. I.e. Is the Govt entering into a market where there is a variety of suppliers, which it will then undermine through the use of its unlimited resources. Rail franchise operators are local monopolies. So that doesn't really apply. It would require some finesse, but the EU allows govts do quite a wide range of things, provided they make the effort to play ball and get what they want under the rules. It's more about how you construct the thing you want to do.

That's my understanding too. The UK used to have fully private rail. The Blair government renationalized Railtrack- by far the biggest part of it.

Even if it's true that we can't "re"nationalize in the EEA, that's the most piss poor excuse for Hard Brexit I've ever heard, even worse than "trade deals". And if this is genuinely what Labour believes, it's pretty shit that the last manifesto (renationalizing train services and water) was predicated on Hard Brexit- lot of people voted Labour in expectation of a softer Brexit.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The EU would never in a million years have been opposed to the renationalization of Railtrack. They would probably have advised the UK govt not to privatize it in the first place. They were creating a private monopoly, by privatizing the rail system.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I can't remember irate reading about irate calls from the EU when the East Coast franchise failed in 2007, and a state-owned company took it on. Labour didn't want it retendered, even though it was very clear about staying in the EU (v Cameron and his referendum).

The SNP also talk about renationalizing, and don't seem to anticipate any problem from the EU.

[Lang Spoon]

I think Slab object to a state company having to go through a tender process, which is what the Nats are proposing. Though I think the Nats are also looking at an exemption for the Western Isles ferries and fully nationalising them, partly cos they are essential services that can never turn a profit without subsidy (unlike Orkney and Shetland routes currently under the clammy embrace of Serco which is doing its damndest to pare back services to the very letter and not the spirit of its contract), so the bidding process is a waste of everyone’s time.

[Flynnie]

If we’re really leaving the EU because we can’t be bothered to put together a tender where, so long as we don’t take the piss, we can always choose ourselves as the winner, then we really deserve the catastrophe we will get.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yeah. Lexit is so fucking stupid. How about creating a Northern European style medium tax, medium spend economy, with anything other than the highest level of inequality in Europe first? It's like they're unaware that you can tax rich people.

[Aitch]

Let us not forget that the railways, although not nationalized, are in effect already state owned. By the Dutch, French and German states. All power to the shareholders!

[Lang Spoon]

We are where we are. In the shitter.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Let us not forget that the railways, although not nationalized, are in effect already state owned. By the Dutch, French and German states. All power to the shareholders!

Those don't own "the railways", they've just got franchises to run trains on bits of it. And some of them are losing money.

The biggest part, Network Rail, is nationalized.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Slab object to a state company having to go through a tender process, which is what the Nats are proposing. Though I think the Nats are also looking at an exemption for the Western Isles ferries and fully nationalising them, partly cos they are essential services that can never turn a profit without subsidy (unlike Orkney and Shetland routes currently under the clammy embrace of Serco which is doing its damndest to pare back services to the very letter and not the spirit of its contract), so the bidding process is a waste of everyone’s time.

Something doesn't have to make a surplus to be put out for tender. Lots of the UK rail franchises don't now, and the same will apply when routes in the EU face competition from about 2023.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Yeah. Lexit is so fucking stupid. How about creating a Northern European style medium tax, medium spend economy, with anything other than the highest level of inequality in Europe first? It's like they're unaware that you can tax rich people.

Or investing more.

[Lang Spoon]

Something doesn't have to make a surplus to be put out for tender. Lots of the UK rail franchises don't now, and the same will apply when routes in the EU face competition from about 2023.

No but I think on the ferries the Scots Gov are arguing the tendering process is unnecessary as no private company is willing to meet the terms of service without more subsidy than a directly govt owned Ferry operation.

[Lang Spoon]

Same reason/excuse water services aren’t put out to tender in Scotland I think.

[Tubby Isaacs]

No but I think on the ferries the Scots Gov are arguing the tendering process is unnecessary as no private company is willing to meet the terms of service without more subsidy than a directly govt owned Ferry operation.

Ah right, I see.

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/993492006893694976

[Tubby Isaacs]

Not just the ERG to be faced down.

On Monday, another leading Brexiter, Michael Gove, praised an intervention on Twitter from Open Europe’s director Henry Newman, who argued that the customs union issue had been comprehensively debated and rejected in the referendum.

"Comprehensively", not when I was watching it wasn't.