Turkey

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

I guess we have different kinds of Turkish friends.

[Reed John]

Turkey

Seems like Erdogan already did a coup of his own to seize power from his ceremonial position as president, so this was a coup against a coup. And now it's going to get worse. Democracy loses either way.

[anton pulisov]

Turkey

Erdogan demanding the extradition of Gulen to Turkey.

Erdogan reminds me of the cocky one on that Beverly Hills real estate reality show.

[Reed John]

Turkey

antoine polus wrote: Erdogan demanding the extradition of Gulen to Turkey.

Erdogan reminds me of the cocky one on that Beverly Hills real estate reality show.

That doesn't really narrow it down.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Turkey

TonTon wrote: I guess we have different kinds of Turkish friends.

What do your Turkish friends say TonTon?

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

his is a hard post to write, but this is to the left or at least some of them. Firstly, we need to talk about the hesitance some of the left have had in celebrating the fact that a military coup was stopped in its tracks in Turkey. If this was latin america and the same happened my timeline would be full of revolutionary images...why isnt it ?
Secondly, why so squeamish about standing with the AKP and its supporters against the coup? There should be no conditions on this, this is basic and elemental. Next, please dont say you are with the Kurds but neither with Erdogan or the military - i will ask which kurds, those who voted AKP or just hot women who shoot muslims...lets be honest here. Next up, it is true there has been some very horrible violence meted out to conscripts caught up in this coup, horrible beatings, horrible attacks by coup opponents...but again ..failed coups are not pretty, they are anti democratic acts and they are violent - if you doubt that read about the execution of fascists in spain, or for that matter the red terror. This does not excuse this, and this goes for uncritical erdogan supporters as well...the defeat of the coup is to be celebrated. To truly build on this requires that leftists in Turkey and their allies push for change, for ...for example...a resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate...this goal is achievable. A carnival of retribution and a retreat into greater and greater repression will make this victory against the army a hollow victory, a poisoned chalice. And for those suggesting the whole thing was a false flag, a U.S. led coup or any such thing...please desist from the stupidity.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

Kind of thing

[steveeeeeeeee]

Turkey

One thing I learned about coups in Egypt s that you have to be organised and most importantly, ruthless. Kid soldiers are neither and those horrible pictures of them cowering in fear as they're beaten with belts suggest this is nothing short of the type of putsch Hitler would be proud of.

[Satchmo Distel]

Turkey

Democracy is always relative. There are no pure ones. But Erdogan seems to be in the mobocracy game, where he wins elections but rules via populism not by consensus, tolerance. And open debate.

[ad hoc]

Turkey

Tonton I'm not entirely sure who you're arguing with here. Nobody on this thread has argued in favour of a coup. And indeed none of my Turkish friends, all of whom loathe Erdogan, want a coup (and all are glad that coup was thwarted). But they do universally believe that Erdogan had a hand on the coup - for the most part that he knew it was coming and he did nothing to stop it or discourage it. I'm not sure who you quoted above, but I don't really understand why you did. You seem to be arguing against a "left" which has not in any way crossed my consciousness, a left which was cheering the coup on.

[Satchmo Distel]

Turkey

The quote is a false binary between celebrating the failure of the coup and supporting the coup. It does not allow for a third position, which is the majority view on here, that the whole episode is unbearably sad, with no good outcomes. The failure of the coup is the lesser of two evils.

[linus]

Turkey

steveeeeeeeee wrote: One thing I learned about coups in Egypt s that you have to be organised and most importantly, ruthless. Kid soldiers are neither and those horrible pictures of them cowering in fear as they're beaten with belts suggest this is nothing short of the type of putsch Hitler would be proud of.

Yes the coup in Egypt was quite ruthless. A good friend of mine who was near the Tahrir Sq. told me that the official body count of under 1,000 was grossly understated.

[Sean of the Shed]

Turkey

TonTon wrote:

his is a hard post to write, but this is to the left or at least some of them. Firstly, we need to talk about the hesitance some of the left have had in celebrating the fact that a military coup was stopped in its tracks in Turkey. If this was latin america and the same happened my timeline would be full of revolutionary images...why isnt it ?
Secondly, why so squeamish about standing with the AKP and its supporters against the coup? There should be no conditions on this, this is basic and elemental. Next, please dont say you are with the Kurds but neither with Erdogan or the military - i will ask which kurds, those who voted AKP or just hot women who shoot muslims...lets be honest here. Next up, it is true there has been some very horrible violence meted out to conscripts caught up in this coup, horrible beatings, horrible attacks by coup opponents...but again ..failed coups are not pretty, they are anti democratic acts and they are violent - if you doubt that read about the execution of fascists in spain, or for that matter the red terror. This does not excuse this, and this goes for uncritical erdogan supporters as well...the defeat of the coup is to be celebrated. To truly build on this requires that leftists in Turkey and their allies push for change, for ...for example...a resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate...this goal is achievable. A carnival of retribution and a retreat into greater and greater repression will make this victory against the army a hollow victory, a poisoned chalice. And for those suggesting the whole thing was a false flag, a U.S. led coup or any such thing...please desist from the stupidity.

That's a grossly dismissive and derogatory view regarding the Kurds, and to believe that Erdogan will engage in any discussion regarding "resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate" is remarkably naive, I'd have thought.

[Satchmo Distel]

Turkey

False flag theory is bollocks e.g. I do not think this helps Erdogan against ISIS.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

I don't know as I'm particularly arguing with anyone. I said my Turkish friends were saying different things, I was asked what, I gave an example.

I do agree with my friend above, and others, that the false flag theory is ridiculous, mind.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

Sean of the Shed wrote:

his is a hard post to write, but this is to the left or at least some of them. Firstly, we need to talk about the hesitance some of the left have had in celebrating the fact that a military coup was stopped in its tracks in Turkey. If this was latin america and the same happened my timeline would be full of revolutionary images...why isnt it ?
Secondly, why so squeamish about standing with the AKP and its supporters against the coup? There should be no conditions on this, this is basic and elemental. Next, please dont say you are with the Kurds but neither with Erdogan or the military - i will ask which kurds, those who voted AKP or just hot women who shoot muslims...lets be honest here. Next up, it is true there has been some very horrible violence meted out to conscripts caught up in this coup, horrible beatings, horrible attacks by coup opponents...but again ..failed coups are not pretty, they are anti democratic acts and they are violent - if you doubt that read about the execution of fascists in spain, or for that matter the red terror. This does not excuse this, and this goes for uncritical erdogan supporters as well...the defeat of the coup is to be celebrated. To truly build on this requires that leftists in Turkey and their allies push for change, for ...for example...a resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate...this goal is achievable. A carnival of retribution and a retreat into greater and greater repression will make this victory against the army a hollow victory, a poisoned chalice. And for those suggesting the whole thing was a false flag, a U.S. led coup or any such thing...please desist from the stupidity.

That's a grossly dismissive and derogatory view regarding the Kurds, and to believe that Erdogan will engage in any discussion regarding "resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate" is remarkably naive, I'd have thought.

It's grossly dismissive of leftists who fetishise "the Kurds", I think.

Are you saying the Turkish left should not agitate for "resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate" ?

[ad hoc]

Turkey

So the choices are being with the kurds, Erdogan or the military? Can people be with the ordinary people of Turkey (including the Kurds)?

FWIW don't think this was a false flag in as much as I find it too hard to believe that a group of people would willingly sacrifice themselves for the cause in this way. I do strongly suspect though that Erdogan knew this was coming and either encouraged or decided to do nothing so as to get the maximum use from it. Not technically a false flag, but also not entirely the opposite.

(And whether or not it helps him against ISIS is a minor consideration for him. ISIS are the least interesting of his enemies, and are tacitly not evenly that much of an enemy. The effectiveness of this in advancing his own megalomania is far more important)

[ad hoc]

Turkey

TonTon wrote:
Are you saying the Turkish left should not agitate for "resumption of the kurdish peace talks, for a relaxation on the repression, for a freedom to assemble and debate" ?

I suspect he is saying that to imagine that so doing would have the remotest effect is living in a dreamworld that bears no resemblance to the real one. Yes obviously people should agitate for these things, but let's not pretend that Erdogan will pay the slightest attention to such agitation (aside from branding said agitators as traitors and locking them up and executing them).

[Satchmo Distel]

Turkey

I do not think leaders want to allow coup attempts to develop. There are too many variables, with no certainty that the coup will fail.

[via vicaria]

Turkey

Yeah, what ad hoc said. While it's a nice sentiment and in an ideal world would be 'an achievable goal', you only need to look at the treatment meted out to the HDP (whose platform is largely in line with the description in TonTon's post) to see how unrealistic a proposition it is in today's Turkey.

I hope that the opposition parties in Turkey (well, the CHP and HDP, I don't know the MHP's position vis-a-vis the AKP) can co-ordinate their efforts to achieve greater electoral success in 2019, but god knows what will happen in the next 3 years.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

ad hoc wrote: So the choices are being with the kurds, Erdogan or the military? Can people be with the ordinary people of Turkey (including the Kurds)?

Is that to me? Well, anyway - no, those aren't the choices, in an exclusionary sense, not at all.

If there's a coup, though, you can either be for or against it. And you have to be against.

Political parties which among them receive the overwhelming majority of Turkish people's votes, including an overwhelming majority of Kurdish people's votes, took clear stands against the coup.

[ad hoc]

Turkey

TonTon wrote:

If there's a coup, though, you can either be for or against it. And you have to be against.

Political parties which among them receive the overwhelming majority of Turkish people's votes, including an overwhelming majority of Kurdish people's votes, took clear stands against the coup.

As did everyone on this thread, every Turkish person I know who expressed any sort of opinion, everyone bar the coup-ers themselves as far as I can tell. But go ahead and tell us all again how we must oppose something that everybody opposes, just in case we need to be reminded for some reason

[DCI Harry Batt]

Turkey

You don't think anyone on the thread has been equivocal? Ok. But anyway, when I say something it doesn't mean that I think you think the opposite.

The PKK didn't oppose the coup, it seems.

[Satchmo Distel]

Turkey

The PKK says it wants genuine democracy in Turkey which neither Erdogan or a coup would deliver. So it opposes a coup.

[Sean of the Shed]

Turkey

TonTon wrote:
The PKK didn't oppose the coup, it seems.

They didn't support it either.