Trayvon Martin

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

I thought the main justification was to ensure that the person never harmed anyone else. I don't think anyone has invented a repeatable method for rehabilitation.

Hence me saying that there are few cases for it but nowhere near the amount that the US locks up for this and certainly nowhere the amount of young black men that it locks up. I mean, there may be a some cases for 40 years of solitary confinement due to safety of other prisoners but, for instance, the Angola 2 aren't it.

I would rend to say that, if you are looking at LWOP candidates, you must be looking at people who are clinically insane and have to looked at in a medical context anyway.

The problem is it would only take one recidivist murderer who had been released after 'rehabilitation' to fatally undermine the project.

I am sure that has happened here and we still don't have LWOP

[Bruno]

Trayvon Martin

Bored of Education wrote:

Hence me saying that there are few cases for it but nowhere near the amount that the US locks up for this and certainly nowhere the amount of young black men that it locks up.

Because there's a special law for young black men. And our judges are racists.

The problem is it would only take one recidivist murderer who had been released after 'rehabilitation' to fatally undermine the project.

I am sure that has happened here and we still don't have LWOP[/quote]
Nor are you (to my knowledge) claiming to have "rehabilitated" those who are released.

I'm not particularly in favor of life without parole. Locking people up is a society's admission that it can't prevent such people from turning out the way they do. But the difference between life and a very long time is academic if we're speaking of good to society as opposed to the individual criminal. Societal good will manifest more effectively from prevention than rehabilitation.

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

Bored of Education wrote:
Hence me saying that there are few cases for it but nowhere near the amount that the US locks up for this and certainly nowhere the amount of young black men that it locks up.

Because there's a special law for young black men. And our judges are racists.

You've seen the figures for how disproportionately over-represented black males are in the US penal system, I take it? I will go and get them if you want. Don't me wrong, black males are over-represented in our prisons as well but they aren't in danger of being killed, locked away in solitary confinement or having life without parole. That's the these (especially the former) are wrong

The problem is it would only take one recidivist murderer who had been released after 'rehabilitation' to fatally undermine the project.

I am sure that has happened here and we still don't have LWOP

Nor are you (to my knowledge) claiming to have "rehabilitated" those who are released.

All of those? No, you're right.

Societal good will manifest more effectively from prevention than rehabilitation.

I agree but LWOP, like the death penalty, is no deterrent. Indeed, it appears to be have an inverse correlation with crime fugueres

[Janik]

Trayvon Martin

Bored of Education wrote:

I am sure that has happened here and we still don't have LWOP

We do, actually. It's called a 'whole life tariff'. It used sparingly enough, and in such obvious cases (Levi Bellfield being a recent example), that it doesn't feel like a problem.

[Paul S]

Trayvon Martin

but the difference between life and a very long time is academic

No it is not acedemic. A lot of my work could well be defined as being acedemic but, ultimately, it affects somone, somewhere. The difference to a 17 year old of life without parold and 25 years is immense. One fosters good behaviour and an incentive to behave and the other does not.

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

Bored of Education wrote:
I am sure that has happened here and we still don't have LWOP

We do, actually. It's called a 'whole life tariff'. It used sparingly enough, and in such obvious cases (Levi Bellfield being a recent example), that it doesn't feel like a problem.

I stand corrected

[Janik]

Trayvon Martin

It is interesting that recidivist murders like this don't generate more of an outcry. I had genuinely never heard of this case before looking at the list of current 'whole life' prisoners.
There does seem to be a disturbing upward trend in the numbers of whole life tariffs being imposed. And that the most recent one was someone who has not been convincted of killing anyone. However, he does sound like the sort of guy who society needs protecting from.

I think a key difference is that LWOP is an automatic sentance for certain types of homicide in certain US states. Whereas whole life tariffs are discretionary, and since the ECHR decision only judges have the power to impose them. This means the possbility of rehabilitation can be taken into consideration when setting the tariff, in a way that automatic LWOP sentances doesn't allow.
That, and the UK doesn't ever sentance juveniles to whole life terms.

[Bruno]

Trayvon Martin

Paul, you've lifted that out of context and gotten it wrong.

[Bruno]

Trayvon Martin

Bored, of course I'm aware of the data, I just prefer having it spelled out that your position is that we have a racist criminal justice system, run by racists.

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

I was stating the effect not the cause so you aren't really going to get that spelled out. Yes, there will be an element of racism in that, there will also be an element of reduced life-chances for black males due to education, social and economic issues as well.

My main point is that where you have a system that disproportionately imprisons black males like yours and, indeed, ours, something is going wrong so don't send them to the chair or lock them up with no parole.

Indeed, as far as the former is concerned, don't do it whatever the make-up of the prison population.

[Bruno]

Trayvon Martin

Bored of Education wrote:

My main point is that where you have a system that disproportionately imprisons black males like yours and, indeed, ours, something is going wrong so don't send them to the chair or lock them up with no parole.

It's a non sequitur. You haven't explained how the disproportionate number of black males is relevant to the justice or injustice of the life without parole sentence. You've insinuated that racism is in play, and the only reason I can think of for bringing it up in a discussion about life without parole is that you think racism inflates the number of instances of that particular sentence. Life without parole is right or wrong irrespective of race.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Trayvon Martin

It's not a particularly honourable answer, but you need public confidence in the system. It's a very slippery slope, but a whole life tarrif for a few people (as opposed to consideration for parole in 30 years) seems like a fairly small concession.

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

While updating myself on this story, I came across this which made me ask the same question as ursus in the opening post.

While I am here, could someone explain the difference between first- and second-degree murder in the US?

[WOM]

Trayvon Martin

First degree is premeditated. ie, you got your gun and went over to X's house to kill him.
Second degree is unplanned. ie, you went over to X's house to collect on a debt and took your gun for protection. Fight breaks out, you shoot him.

[Femme Folle]

Trayvon Martin

Degrees of murder in the USA

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

Thanks, FF. I really should have done that myself, shouldn't I?

So second degree is like manslaughter then? I thought you had manslaughter in the US. Indeed, I had an idea that the term originated over there. In retrospect, that is highly unlikely

WOM, you do know that I never took a gun out while collecting debts, don't you? A cycle often but most of it was over the phone

[Wyatt Earp]

Trayvon Martin

No, manslaughter is different again. Even here, the circumstances WOM describes would be murder, and would carry a lower tariff than premeditated murder (although we don't systematically distinguish).

[Femme Folle]

Trayvon Martin

A simple way to think about the difference between 2nd degree murder and manslaughter is this:

Shooting someone with a gun = 2nd degree murder

Unintentionally running someone over with your car = manslaughter

There are degrees of manslaughter, too (voluntary, involuntary).

[Flynnie]

Trayvon Martin

Femme Folle wrote: A simple way to think about the difference between 2nd degree murder and manslaughter is this:

Shooting someone with a gun = 2nd degree murder

Unintentionally running someone over with your car = manslaughter

There are degrees of manslaughter, too (voluntary, involuntary).

Unintentionally running somebody over with your car probably wouldn't be manslaughter. Unintentionally running somebody over while driving down a sidewalk would, however (involuntary).

Voluntary manslaughter would be something akin to going over to collect a debt, the guy comes after you with a baseball bat, you get in a fight and you kill him.

[Femme Folle]

Trayvon Martin

I did say it was a 'simple' way to think about it.

It seems like the definition varies as well, depending on the jurisdiction.

What I was thinking when I wrote about running someone over was actually in the course of violating a law (i.e., failing to yield for a pedestrian in a marked crossing, driving while drunk, etc.). But maybe that would really be called 'vehicular homicide'.

If you were driving at night and someone wearing dark clothing was walking on the street, that would not be manslaughter--it would probably be ruled an accidental death.

[Bored Of Education]

Trayvon Martin

Sorry, this is my fault for being lazy and not looking up the difference myself. Suffice to say, I understand now why Zimmerman got a second degree murder charge eventually

[Incandenza]

Trayvon Martin

Police in Jonesboro, Arkansas say that a young African American man who was arrested killed himself by gunshot to the head. He was put in the back of a police car with his hands handcuffed behind the back, and he was shot in the right temple even though he is left-handed[.

Seems believable.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Trayvon Martin

look at the name of the journalist who filed that piece.

[Femme Folle]

Trayvon Martin

Here is Charles Blow's take on the Chavis Carter case.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/04/opinion/blow-the-curious-case-of-chavis-charter.html?smid=pl-share

[Amor de Cosmos]

Trayvon Martin

Fernwood tackles the problem. "Every citizen of legally voting age should own a gun."