Bolivia

[E10 Rifle]

Yeah can we have quotas on the use of the word "populist"?

[ursus arctos]

God yes, please

The UK media is particularly bad in this respect, but it certainly has been applied without any thought here as well.

[Johnny Velvet]

It's a catch-all term used by members of what Tariq Ali would call "the extreme Centre" to dismiss real and valid criticisms of neoliberal governments and infantilise anyone who objects to their "There Is No Alternative" dogma by treating it as if it was a bout of an illness or something.

"Oh, it's just populism! They'll come to their senses, eventually."

[Flynnie]

God yes, please

The UK media is particularly bad in this respect, but it certainly has been applied without any thought here as well.

Cas Mudde got fuck knows how much money from the Guardian for a serious of articles so vacuous that you'd reject them as too dumb to have been written by a Spice Girl.

[Nefertiti2]

Cas Mudde
Is a bit of a Dudde

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/evagolinger/status/1195448717165420544?s=21[/URL]

[Incandenza]

Disturbing videos out there showing that at least 4 indigenous protesters have been killed, others shown alive and bleeding from gunshot wounds in the chest

[Nefertiti2]

meanwhile in La Paz...it doesn't look as the election is going to be rerun anytime soon.

https://twitter.com/Guaitafran/status/1195455559723618304?s=20

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

It's a catch-all term used by members of what Tariq Ali would call "the extreme Centre" to dismiss real and valid criticisms of neoliberal governments and infantilise anyone who objects to their "There Is No Alternative" dogma by treating it as if it was a bout of an illness or something.

"Oh, it's just populism! They'll come to their senses, eventually."

This is not something that an Irish person should say. Our politics has been wall to wall populism since the foundation of the state. Populism simply involves making promises that you either can't deliver, or won't deliver, or don't explain how you are going to fund them. Pretty much every irish election manifesto since the foundation of the state is that they will cut your personal taxes, increase spending on you, and an unspecified someone else will pay for it. And that's why we've gone bankrupt twice in my lifetime. That covers an awful lot of politics. for instance Every political party in the UK is now proposing a rapid expansion of spending without specifying what they are going to do about the UK's puny tax base. This generally has a positive impact initially as it starts a bit of a bubble of some sort. Unfortunately the bubble eventually bursts (See Venezuela and Brazil, or us) One of the reasons that Bolivia was so relatively successful over such a long period of time is that Economically they were quite conservative, and aside from taking bigger royalties from their extractive industries, they haven't strayed too far from many of the recommendations of the world bank that they kicked out, because not all of them are bad. Also investing in infrastructure in underdeveloped and underserved areas is the sort of spending that generally is only going to benefit you. even in the event of a global economic downturn. The problem here though is that means that progress while real is slow and incremental, and frequently very disappointing as it is short of what was promised. And that's where it can curdle.

But in a broader sense, I'll put it to you this way, Daniel Ortega used to be very popular in our house back in the 1980's. That was a very scarring lesson. Now he is his own kettle of fish, but It would be difficult to look at the broad span of post-colonial history across the world, without becoming extremely nervous when someone regardless of his initial intent, doesn't show any signs of handing over power after a reasonably short period. it's one of the steps on the well worn path from left wing liberator firebrand, to being Robert Mugabe. None of this makes a coup to the benefit of monstrous racists justifiable in any manner or means. Just, you know, South American politics (much like politics anywhere) is a poor place to be looking for heroes. This is bad because it appears to be an american backed coup to impose a evangelical fascist government. I would focus on that, rather than dwelling too much on the positive merits of Morales himself.

[Johnny Velvet]

This is not something that an Irish person should say.

Berba, I’ve no desire to get into an argument with you as you’re a sound lad. But I think it has to be acknowledged that when it comes to politics you and I are on very different pages. There are a host of issues on which I think we’d be in deep disagreement – what the EU did to Greece, the Irish government’s response to the financial crisis and capitulation to the Troika, what needs to be done in order to save the planet, the role of leftwing politics in Latin America, the prospect of a Corbynist government in the UK, the demonisation of Russia, the profound need to bring an end to capitalism, even who should manage Manchester United. Life is short and I’d rather spend as little of it as possible arguing with good people.

With that said, I think it’s time I took a break from OTF for a while. It’s been on my mind for some time for a number of reasons. Firstly, and this is a failing entirely on my behalf, I’m finding it increasingly hard to maintain conversations or even calm with people when it comes to disagreements, which leads to a lot of suppressed anger on my part. Secondly, I spend far too much time here and on social media in general to the ultimate detriment of my attention span and cognitive capacity. Thirdly, I don’t contribute anything to the board anymore – most of my posts are links to tweets or articles that articulate what I want to say far better than I could and, well, there are bots that do that kind of thing. Fourthly, I get the impression that I’m winding people up and I really don’t want to do that. OTF is a much nicer place now than it was a decade ago and I don’t want to be known as one of the arseholes who ruins it for people. Ultimately, I guess that OTF just isn’t good for me and, more importantly, I’m just not good for OTF. This won’t affect my financial contributions to When Saturday Comes and to the board – I’ll be supporting both as soon as I’m out of debt. If any of you see me posting or lurking here in the near future you’re more than welcome to point me in the direction of this post. But for the time being at least I think it’s time to say sayonara OTF.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Your decision, Reg, but I'd be very surprised if you weren't regarded by regulars on OTF as one of the most pleasant, articulate and thoughtful posters that we're privileged to have on the board. That's certainly my view.

I can sympathise with your desire to disengage, OTF can become rather addictive, but if you do so please don't think that you're doing us a favour. You'll be much-missed.

[ad hoc]

You'll be missed RC. And for what it;s worth, I don't get the impression at all that you are winding people up, and as you say this place is better than it was 10 years ago in many ways, and your presence is overwhelmingly a positive. (This to be honest is pretty much true of everyone on here these days - there is no-one on OTF2019 who I wish wasn't here)

But, I do understand the desire to step back a bit. I suspect many of us have gone through it from time to time. Hope it refreshes you and that we see you back here before long

[ursus arctos]

What they said, RC.

Your contributions are very much worthwhile and not at all winding people up.

But we all need to look after ourselves. Be well.

[Sporting]

What the previous people said.

[Satchmo Distel]

RC, I totally understand OTF-fatigue but please don't go away thinking you've wound anyone up here. I enjoy all your posts.

[Nefertiti2]

Yes would be great if you stick around RC , always find your posts and links insightful.

(And i spend most of my time linking to things other people have said, come to think of it)

[Nefertiti2]

meanwhile in Bolivia

https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1195785076547604480?s=20

[Incandenza]

I know this thread is about Bolivia, but to show what state the media in the US is in, yesterday the NY Times tweeted a link to a podcast episode discussing Chile by saying "America exported its economic system to Chile after the downfall of a dictator..." The "dictator" they were talking about was Allende.

I'll be sorry to see you go RC, but as ursus said you need to do what's best for your mental health.

[San Bernardhinault]

As everyone says, RC - leave for your own benefit if you need to. It definitely won't be to our benefit. I don't think you've been winding anyone up, and what you post almost always add information and insight.

[Nefertiti2]

[URL]https://twitter.com/zachjcarter/status/1195899676802854912?s=21[/URL]

[E10 Rifle]

Undertand your desire to step back RC - as ad hoc says, many of us have done it at various times - but your contributions here are always thoughtful and sound, and not at all aggressive or provocative really.

[delicatemoth]

Thirdly, I don’t contribute anything to the board anymore – most of my posts are links to tweets or articles that articulate what I want to say far better than I could and, well, there are bots that do that kind of thing.

This is mainly what I do on Twitter, and it drives me towards a thought that's been nagging at me - if we, as a group of mainly UK/Anglophone, white, leftish male folk are discussing, say, Bolivia, does it not make sense that many if not most constructive contributions would be links to the thoughts of people who know more than we do? I have nothing to add beyond 'this looks like latest version of classic US imperialism badness', that's most of what I know about Bolivia. But if I see something good on Twitter from someone in a position to know more, I might post it here. I think this is part of decentring our own perspectives (she says, in a paragraph dotted with 'I' and 'we'!)

(And i spend most of my time linking to things other people have said, come to think of it)

It's good, amplify that work.

Oh, and Reg - if you want to take a break for your self-care then all the best. But you are a very positive voice on the board and I greatly appreciate your posts.

[Hot Pepsi]

I don’t want to downplay interference from the US government, mining concerns, foreign wingnut evangelicals, etc, but I suspect a lot of the racism and authoritarianism is entirely homegrown and doesn’t need any outside help to fester. Greed and the will to dominate are not, unfortunately, unique to the northern or Western Hemispheres or even unique to white people.

[E10 Rifle]

Latin America has a rich tradition and culture of outright racism, which has long dovetailed with the interests you list. The self-proclaimed new pres of Bolivia is very much within that tradition

[Hot Pepsi]

Yes, I can see that. It’s more of a problem than I’d ever noticed until recently.

But I can’t help but feeling that Morales’ anti-Christian - or, at least, anti-Bible - statements were an unnecessary provocation. I totally get why indigenous people may think Christianity is inextricably linked to European racism, imperialism and fascism. That’s certainly how it’s been presented to them throughout most of history.

But I read that something like 93% of Bolivians consider themselves to be Christian. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume - though I may be wrong - that many, perhaps, most of these Christians are either indigenous people and/or not particularly interested in fascism. Why alienate those people?

This is not a new problem, of course. Since the middle-ages governments of all persuasions, from monarchies to authoritarian communist outfits, have struggled with what to do with religion; If the government tries to stamp it out, the religious people become the government’s enemy and get help from their friends abroad to take you down. But if government tries to make religion its partner, the religious leadership tends to get greedy and wants to be in charge, which then antagonizes all the other religions. And, of course, the religious establishment (church or synagogue or mosque or whatever) is corrupted by those that use it as a platform for political power.