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    Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

    Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote: My son has just finished his first year football training in his local football club in Zwolle. He’s just finished in the minis (5-6 years old). He has 2 x 45 minute training each week. His coach holds both KNVB and UEFA licenses and his training is designed with fun and age appropriate basic training in mind. My son plays on an all weather pitch designed for kids his size during the summer and autumn months. In winter he plays in indoor facilities. Both outdoor and indoor facilities are based in the same boys club, which has multiple all weather pitches for different age ranges as well as a grass full size pitch for the seniors.

    All this costs us is €1.50 per month. The KNVB sets a nominal sum that goes up with each age level to ensure social inclusion. The club acts as a social club for the kids, with a ton of other activities outside football and as a community centre for the local area. Children’s access to high quality football facilities and coaching is viewed a social right, a right which the Dutch appear to view as an absolute bedrock in children’s development, both in health terms and benefits in socializing and building individuality. Footballing excellence and subsequent elite player development is viewed as a happy side effect. The football club is at the very centre of the Dutch community.

    My son’s club is identical across the entirety of the country. A work colleague who lives in a village of just under 500 people recently had their kids football club facilities upgraded to the tune of €100k, the funding coming from the KNVB, gemeente and various local organizations.

    I can directly compare the facilities my son has access to, the coaching and the cost with his older cousins in Glasgow and the North West of England who play football. It is a complete and utter embarrassment to compare.

    If you want to know why English football will never deliver the goods at international level and will continue to decline, just look at the absolute seriousness the Dutch, Icelanders and various other countries take their children and look at the football facilities each of these countries deliver to their kids through investment. And then look at England and the rest of the UK.

    Once every 5 and 6 year old in the UK can enjoy access to the footballing facilities and coaching my son does then the UK game can start to rebuild. But it is never going to happen.
    So which countries is the lad eligible for? Can he play for Scotland?

    See, we're on the wrong track with this "better coaching in England/UK" pipe dream. Look at modern international teams; full of players who are Albanian/Swiss, German/Turkish, French/Algerian, etc. Multiple eligibility is the way forward.

    Meanwhile, the England squad consists entirely of players who only ever play in England, and can barely say 'Bonjour' in Spanish. The lad Dier is regarded as a welcome bonus, an oddity, because he learned football somewhere foreign. THAT's what England need more of.

    For all true Englishmen, your duty is clear. Pick a country with a decent coaching set-up, spend your summer holidays there, and shag yourself stupid. In 2040 your Euro-bred sperm will win the tournament for England.

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      Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

      erm, the english team is full of dual nationality players, and the children of immigrants.

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        Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

        But how many of them played their formative football elsewhere?

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          Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

          Defensive Minded wrote:

          Are the coaches paid or volunteers?
          A combination of both. My son's coach is a retired youth football coach and PE teacher and he volunteers. You tend to find the paid coaches are at the older kids end of the scale. Payment of coaches has been identified as a problem in Dutch football where coaches are increasingly focused on results to justify their payments at the detriment of building skills and enjoyment.

          tee rex,

          He can definitely play for Scotland and ahem, England (which is never going to be an option..). I daresay he could play for Holland, he was born and brought up here and residency would probably mean he could. If he's good he'll play for Holland, if he's rubbish he'll play for Scotland.

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            Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

            Wow, I never realised Eric Dier was Ted Croker's grandson.

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              Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

              Limey wrote: All this talk about the quality/quantity of coaching... about how overrated the PL is... about how rich/entitled/rubbish England's players are... about the weaknesses at grassroots...

              What's being missed is this:

              England qualified for Euro 2016 with a 100% record. They qualified for World Cup 2014 and Euro 2012 without losing a game. And they dropped only three points in qualifying for World Cup 2010.

              Clearly, England do have good players and are capable of playing well as a team. The qualification record wouldn't be what it is if this were not the case.

              What seems to be the issue in recent years is that when they have to play a high-pressure, must-win game - in a tournament, in other words - they completely go to pieces and collapse into a disorganised, every-man-for-himself rabble.

              It's a psychological failing as much as anything, and I have no idea the cause or the solution. Answers on a postcard.
              This is all true. Partly, because England are good enough to qualify with ease, they never normally need to address this - the pressure-cooker games come around once every two years and it's only then that they suddenly freeze. Then back in qualifying they'll relax, win games, play nice football and everything will appear rosy once more.

              But as others have said, having a wider philosophy underpinning the national setup - a style of play; a settled team; a sense of solidarity with the nation etc - gives you something to draw upon when the pressure hits.

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                Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                Renart wrote:
                Originally posted by Je Suis Womble
                Just to jump on that 'worst performances' bandwagon:

                10 (08) vs USA (n), WC '10
                Rob Green had an almost identical goalkeeping howler to Hart's in that match, if memory serves.
                He did indeed - England also having taken a fourth-minute lead: the similarities continued with England's inability to recover sufficiently to win. At least on that occasion, we didn't actually lose, however.

                Edit: 11 (09) vs Norway (a), WCQ '81

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                  Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                  Renart wrote:
                  Originally posted by Je Suis Womble
                  Just to jump on that 'worst performances' bandwagon:

                  10 (08) vs USA (n), WC '10
                  Rob Green had an almost identical goalkeeping howler to Hart's in that match, if memory serves.
                  Another similarity is that England played OK up to conceding the first goal but then just turned to shit. I think their mental fragility is such that they just shit themselves when a team equalizes.

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                    Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                    On England's record in qualifiers v finals, I think there are four factors:

                    1) Almost all England players are in the same league and can travel together. Their opponents are having to drag in their players from all around Europe for games.

                    2) Many teams need the weeks before and during a finals tournament to truly gel. Look at Germany and Italy in the qualifiers (usually under-performing) versus finals.

                    3) England actually get worse during a tournament (their best football in 2014 and 2016 was the first 45 minutes they played), so it's like a reverse coaching effect, whereby whatever is happening on the training ground is having negative impact.

                    4) The psychological burden that they clearly cannot handle in KO games has no equivalent in qualifiers, except maybe that 2007 collapse against Croatia. The press seems to give tnem a far easier ride, for example.

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                      Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                      Not sure if this interesting article has been posted up here but does anyone know if this bit is accurate :

                      "England’s delegation apparently jumped from their seats and punched the air when Iceland scored the stoppage-time winner that meant Hodgson’s team facing the smallest nation in the tournament."

                      I presume they will have needed people watching Hungary v Portugal simultaneously too? Which exacerbates the idiocy of Hodgson and Lewington going on the town.

                      .

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                        Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                        Ray de Galles wrote: Not sure if this interesting article has been posted up here but does anyone know if this bit is accurate :

                        "England’s delegation apparently jumped from their seats and punched the air when Iceland scored the stoppage-time winner that meant Hodgson’s team facing the smallest nation in the tournament."

                        I presume they will have needed people watching Hungary v Portugal simultaneously too? Which exacerbates the idiocy of Hodgson and Lewington going on the town.

                        .
                        What is Hodgson's issue with Scandanavians, he made his reputation in that region but has a healthy disdain for them that he seems to exude whenever he comes across one of their journalists in press conferences?

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                          Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                          Satchmo Distel wrote:

                          4) The psychological burden that they clearly cannot handle in KO games has no equivalent in qualifiers, except maybe that 2007 collapse against Croatia. The press seems to give tnem a far easier ride, for example.
                          Really? Poland in '73 and Netherlands in '93 immediately spring to mind as exceptions to that.

                          .

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                            Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                            Do we genuinely think he didn't know about their throw-in routine?

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                              Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                              Felicity, I guess so wrote: Do we genuinely think he didn't know about their throw-in routine?
                              I'm sure he did, so why did he have Rooney marking 6'3" Arnason who flicked it on and nobody tracking Ragnor's run to meet it?

                              The second part of that can probably be blamed on dozy players (but Hodgson is picking and preparing them) but the first is rank poor management.

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                                Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                I was thinking of a shorter timeframe, post-Kevin Keegan. Obviously the period 1973-2000 was often touch and go over whether England would qualify. Sometimes that's because anxiety came down from the coach. Ramsey was out of touch by 1973, Revie was ridiculously giving players folders on the opposition, Taylor obviously was not psychologically fit for the job, and Keegan was a lightweight.

                                Bear in mind also that qualification has simply got much easier. England were knocked out by good sides in 1973, 1977, 1983, 1993 and 2007. They just had to finish above Slovenia in 2015.

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                                  Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                  Carniveraux Vulgarry wrote:
                                  Originally posted by Ray de Galles
                                  Originally posted by Satchmo Distel

                                  4) The psychological burden that they clearly cannot handle in KO games has no equivalent in qualifiers, except maybe that 2007 collapse against Croatia. The press seems to give tnem a far easier ride, for example.
                                  Really? Poland in '73 and Netherlands in '93 immediately spring to mind as exceptions to that.

                                  .
                                  Yeah, it's not straightforward. I think what tends to happen is that when England win the first few games of their qualification campaign they relax in the knowledge that qualification is effectively ensured. In the campaign for USA 94 they drew 1-1 with Norway and 2-2 with Netherlands early on so they were up against it from the start.
                                  England outplayed Poland in 73 and should have beaten them. That was a similar game to Northern Ireland and Germany in this tournament. A mixture of jammy goalkeeping and poor finishing was England's undoing.

                                  Holland in 93 were a seriously good team that was in transition from the 80's team of Gullit and the 90's team of Bergkamp et al. Also there was a pretty controversial refereeing decision when Koeman escaped as blatant a red card as there should have been to go down the other end and score the winner.
                                  Holland were a seriously good team in both Euro 92 and USA 94 and could have won both tournaments (losing to the eventual winners in both). You could make an argument that England did well to run them so close in both games.

                                  As for Croatia in 2007, the surprise is that we didn't know at the time how good those Croatian players were. That team, contained Modric, Corluka, Srna, Olic and Rakitic all of whom have good on to show what top quality players they are.

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                                    Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                    Shouldn't Rooney, as captain, have said, "No, I can't mark a big lad, please put Cahill on him?"

                                    What happened to Italia 90-style player power?

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                                      Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                      I can see two points here that are very losely related:

                                      1. the coaching setup in the UK and why they no longer produce even British type players let alone any other type that "we" desire (Brazil currently have the same problem for different reasons). I have written about it numerous times in the past and would link to if i could search through the old forums (poster Malcolm X, Uncle Tom and tactical Genius). Most of you have read that and judging by some of your posts, seem to agree.

                                      2. Why good players seem to play really poorly when they pull on an England shirt, especially in tournaments. i think England have some kind of mental weakness when they get together that inhibits players from playing to their potential in a national shirt. How many times have we seen English players start of their international careers bright and breezy before the slowly and surely regress. recent examples are Rooney, Sterling, and Alli. I suspect Rashford will be the same after half a dozen caps.
                                      Compare and contrast with players from other countries who seem to turn into Supermen. Gabor Kiraly was barely premier league class at his peak with Palace, but is knocking on 40 and flying around the pitch like Lev Yashin.
                                      Even Gylfi Suggurdson who at spurs was talented with great technique, but was too slow and lightweight to be a top quality player crunching through England's midfield like a Lothar MattheusRoy Keane hybrid.

                                      And we can't blame the English league as nearly a third of the players in this tournamnet play in England and the Welsh players don't seem to be similarly affected.

                                      I too don't know the answer to this, but it is definitly mental and has little to do with tactical or technical ability or a lack of.

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                                        Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                        Satchmo Distel wrote: Shouldn't Rooney, as captain, have said, "No, I can't mark a big lad, please put Cahill on him?"

                                        What happened to Italia 90-style player power?
                                        In those situations, you should have a mixture of zonal and man-to-man marking.

                                        Someone competent marking the big man, and someone marking the space they like to throw the ball into.

                                        That was proper Alehouse football for the goal.

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                                          Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                          Felicity, I guess so wrote: Do we genuinely think he didn't know about their throw-in routine?
                                          If he did, he kept it a secret.

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                                            Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                            Rooney did go off-message regarding set pieces at least once in the tournament according to the article I posted upthread :
                                            “I don’t need to apologise for Harry Kane taking a corner,” he argued. “Kane is the best striker of the ball we have. He’s the one who gives us the best delivery. We’ve tried many other players and we don’t get the same level of delivery as we get from Harry. We believe the best chance of scoring a goal is by the delivery and you can prove that with research.”

                                            The players, however, plainly did not agree, bearing in mind that in the following match against Wales it was Wayne Rooney who went across to take the first corner. Hodgson was so startled he came out of the dugout and his body language was of a man wanting to know what was going on. Kane went into the middle, Rooney swung the ball over and Hodgson looked entirely nonplussed. It could not be described as a mutiny but it was as close to one as anything else that happened in the Hodgson era.

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                                              Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                              On the throw-in question, whatever Roy "knew", the FA's website was all over it.

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                                                Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                                Yes. But we know British players find reading dossiers or watching videos of opponents a waste of time

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                                                  Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                                  That Mail piece ripping the players, their WAGs, and their hobbies/houses is really quite extraordinary.

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                                                    Cod War Three: ENG-ICE

                                                    Arnason used to take our long throws, rather than just flick them on...

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