Long March on Moscow - WC Qualifiers, Europe

[Wouter D]

Netherlands since 1978 have had the widest fluctuations in form of any national team ever. From world top 4 to outside the top 30 in 3 Years? Probably a worse slide than 1978-82 and the first decade of this century.

Behold the magic that Louis van Gaal can bring. Also, Argentina may well copy this feat later tonight.

So Slovakia lose out on a playoff spot for having the temerity to drop more points against Scotland and Slovenia than Ireland dropped against Wales, Austria, and Georgia or Greece dropped against Bosnia & Herzegovina and Estonia. This does not convince me that comparing records across groups is anything but a horrible idea.

[ursus arctos]

Playoff seeds confirmed

Italy, Croatia, Denmark and Switzerland. Non-seeds: Ireland, Greece, Northern Ireland and Sweden.

Draw late next week, order of matches to be determined by draw (i.e., Non-seeded teams can be home in second leg)

[Antepli Ejderha]

Playoff seeds confirmed

Italy, Croatia, Denmark and Switzerland. Non-seeds: Ireland, Greece, Northern Ireland and Sweden.

Draw late next week, order of matches to be determined by draw (i.e., Non-seeded teams can be home in second leg)

A distinct lack of quality amongst most of those countries.

[Patrick Thistle]

Draw late next week, order of matches to be determined by draw (i.e., Non-seeded teams can be home in second leg)

That makes no sense. You wouldn't put them all in one bag would you? Otherwise you'd pull a team and then have to somehow avoid the 3 other seeds or non seeds when you draw the next ball. So if you've got 2 bags you draw one first then the other. So you will always skew the draw whatever you do.

[Lang Spoon]

Jesus. Denmark as seeds? Switzerland? Even Croatia are a bit guff these days. Europe looks a bit gash all round.

The worst part of me wants Ireland to draw Italy just so Martin can be ground into the dust in the second away leg (probably in fucking Bari, just to rub it in). No one beats Italy in a play-off. Till Alex A says otherwise once happened. Fuck the 4-4-2 bullshit, the fear of any kind of progressive football, the kick it long desperation against just about anyone, the shunning of Hoolahan. Even Iceland, it’s defensive to the nth, but there is a visible organization that looks like the results of the kind of post 90s coaching neither O’Neill or Keane have any idea about.

If Ireland don’t get Italy, I’d say there’s a very good chance they’ll qualify. Then I’ll have to follow imp with his boycott, or I might have to tear the eyes out of my head if I chance upon the O’Neill anti football masterclass. Is there no other coach out there? Better lucky than good, but it is physically unpleasant, almost to Trap levels. Not through thuggery, just the sheer cowardice toward treating the ball as an ally, not something you have to kick away aimlessly in disgust and fear.

[ursus arctos]

PT, you can determine the draw and the order of the matches separately (in either order), it is done quite frequently

[G-Man]

Whoever knocks out Greece and Switzerland will earn my gratitude. Depending in the draw, I'd like Denmark, Ireland and Sweden go through. And if Italy fails (conceivably only against Sweden), I'd love to go Nelson Muntz on them.

[Vicarious Thrillseeker]

If we were anywhere near likely to play you anytime soon, I'm sure my dislike of the Slops would resurface! Chester are just beyond disliking anymore, they are a parody of a club.

Easy tiger.

[Patrick Thistle]

PT, you can determine the draw and the order of the matches separately (in either order), it is done quite frequently

That's what I'm saying. If you have seeds you can't say the draw is random so certain sides of the draw could be at home. Unless you check a ball and put it back if it's not the right type. Which is just a crap process.

[ursus arctos]

All of the seeds "could" be at home in the second leg.

None of the seeds "could" be at home in the second leg.

The statistically most likely outcome is that some of the seeds will be at home in the second leg and some will not be.

[Janik]

That's what I'm saying. If you have seeds you can't say the draw is random so certain sides of the draw could be at home. Unless you check a ball and put it back if it's not the right type. Which is just a crap process.

Bag 1 - four seeded teams
Bag 2 - four unseeded teams
Bags A-D - two balls in each, one marked 'seeds' the other 'non-seeds'

Process: draw a ball from bag 1 and bag 2. There is your match A. Then draw a ball from bag A, which tells you which side plays at home in leg one. All pretty simple.

[anton pulisov]

Jazz Richards was booked for time wasting against Serbia. In the 70th minute.

I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding.

[ursus arctos]

Janik, I was hoping that degree of detail wasn't necessary, but thank you.

[anton pulisov]

So there is one ball per leg.

[Ray de Galles]

Jazz Richards was booked for time wasting against Serbia. In the 70th minute.

I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding.

Ah, you are actually being a deliberately obtuse point-missing prick now - I’m out.

[Patrick Thistle]

Bag 1 - four seeded teams
Bag 2 - four unseeded teams
Bags A-D - two balls in each, one marked 'seeds' the other 'non-seeds'

Process: draw a ball from bag 1 and bag 2. There is your match A. Then draw a ball from bag A, which tells you which side plays at home in leg one. All pretty simple.

Seems a lot of hassle to go to. If you're going to bother to seed to confer some kind of advantage why bother ruling out another advantage?

[ursus arctos]

I'm sure that the fact that it adds time to a "show" that FIFA has sold adverts for is completely incidental.

[elguapo4]

As said earlier, Netherlands penalty against Sweden was a terrible decision but Belgiums against Cyprus was worse, how can senior refs get the laws of the game so badly wrong

[anton pulisov]

Ah, you are actually being a deliberately obtuse point-missing prick now - I’m out.

I'm actually having trouble seeing the same one sided blinkered view of everything.

God knows, O'Neill plays negative tactics and watching Ireland play is going to give me cataracts eventually.

It's just I don't get the blinkered vision of Ireland being nothing but a shithouse team, cheating and playacting and brutalising their way to a playoff, denying Wales their rightful place in world football. And when we point out that, you know, Welsh players get booked for time wasting as well, and that a Welsh player actually broke the leg of Ireland's best player, and another one left John O'Shea needing eight stitches in his calf, we are apparently not allowed to count that against Wales... because, well, all those things are apparently not in keeping with what Wales do. But it is actually is what happened. In reality.

I don't understand what point I am supposed to be missing here?

But to point that out is to be a either prick or a cunt, depending on which Welsh poster is responding.

[Patrick Thistle]

I'm sure that the fact that it adds time to a "show" that FIFA has sold adverts for is completely incidental.

Ah yes. That makes sense.

[Satchmo Distel]

One bag with 8 balls would suffice for home and away, so long as 4 are H and four A.

[San Bernardhinault]

One bag of 8 teams would suffice. No need for a second home/away draw. If you draw a non-seed after a non-seed was already drawn in Game 1 and no seed has yet been drawn, you just make them the home team (first leg) in Game 2.

[Satchmo Distel]

There's an irreconcilable gulf between the most efficient draw and the one that milks the last drop of artificial drama from the cow.

[Duncan Gardner]

A distinct lack of quality amongst most of those countries

A favorite to win the thing, 3 former winners, everyone's Balkan dark horse and the in-form Swedes & Swiss. What more quality were you expecting? If France and England showed it'd be because they'd fcuked up; if Netherlands were there it'd be down to everyone else in their group tanking.

Mark my words, Europa's second-raters will have no answer to our attacking options- the Heptathlete's long throws, McAuley and Evans at set pieces, Millwall Schemer Georgie Saville. I can taste the Stolichnaya already.

[Jorge Porbillas]

It's just I don't get the blinkered vision of Ireland being nothing but a shithouse team, cheating and playacting and brutalising their way to a playoff, denying Wales their rightful place in world football. And when we point out that, you know, Welsh players get booked for time wasting as well, and that a Welsh player actually broke the leg of Ireland's best player, and another one left John O'Shea needing eight stitches in his calf, we are apparently not allowed to count that against Wales... because, well, all those things are apparently not in keeping with what Wales do. But it is actually is what happened. In reality.

Taylor's tackle was a one off incident which has been roundly condemned by every Welsh poster on here. To keep bringing it up as an example of Wales' roughhouse tactics is not only tedious it's disingenuous. Ireland's bullying, cynical tactics were constant over both the 90 minutes we played - you suggest this only happened against Wales, I can't refute this as I don't watch Ireland but I find it difficult to believe the shitty little elbows, off the ball ankle taps and the like were tactics designed just for games against us.

On Friday Joe Allen left the field with concussion and Wayne Hennessey left the stadium in a protective boot.

To suggest the Welsh OTF posters believe Wales have a "rightful place in world football" is so laughable I almost shouldn't dignify it with a response. You either are being deliberately obtuse or to paraphrase a classic OTF line, "you don't understand Welsh football culture".

But to point that out is to be a either prick or a cunt, depending on which Welsh poster is responding.

I don't think anyone's called you a cunt.