Evra v Suárez

[G-Man]

Evra v Suárez

Why is that kind of interchange between grown men is qualitatively different from asking (say) David Beckham if Posh takes it up the arse?

That's what I meant earlier when I said you were equating racism with Yo Momma comments, Nefertiti.

Firstly, Posh's putative sexual practises have not been the basis for Beckham's historic social, political and economic disempowerment.

Secondly, Beckham can reply to the questio with a "yes" or a "no" or a "none of your business". How do you reply to racial abuse?

[Ray de Galles]

Evra v Suárez

Nefertiti2 wrote:

It isn't absolutely plain-or not to me anyway. Where do you draw that line? Curly hair? that could be interpreted as racist. It's a serious question. Why is it worse to say negrito to a grown man than to ask him if his wife takes it up the arse?

I think there is a problem if you permit every other form of abuse and sledging on the pitch and demand the mildest form of abuse a five match ban because it is deemed (by the offended party) to have a racial element. Then stop abuse of all kinds. If you think that's the way to go.

Wow, that is pretty staggering backward stuff.

Perhaps this might help?

[Moonlight Shadow]

Evra v Suárez

Re Suarez having played in the Netherlands and therefore should be aware that "negro" is a racist epithey, I'm not entirely sure this is right. A few years ago, a chap from Rotterdam worked at IBM with me and once he casually used the word "negro" to describe a black player. I pointed out to him how dodgy that terminology was and he was rather surprised. He explained to me that in Holland, it is quite a correct term and it is in fact calling someone "black" whwartz I think) that is seen as racist.

I would like to have a Dutch speaker corroboration for that as it happens.

[dalliance]

Evra v Suárez

I don't really see how this part of debate has carried on so far. If you believe that racist actions and language is wrong, surely it follows that you believe that racist actions and language is wrong universally. Of course, you can perhaps understand why, in certain contexts, racism is more prevalent but that doesn't mean you accept that.

Hang on, I was very clear that I was wholly onside with our low tolerance of racism compared with much of the rest of the world. I was making the point that elsewhere our standards are not necessarily global standards and to expect them to be followed as such by Blatter and others is very naive.

[Bored Of Education]

Evra v Suárez

Well, this is where I am having problems with Nef and, to a lesser extent, your arguments here.

If you are against racism (and you obviously are) then, of course, you are expecting and worling towards this being a global standard. Otherwise we get into the sort of moral superiority that Nef was suggesting.

"Oh, we have the maturity and sophistication to realise that racist actions and language are wrong but you can't expect Johnny Foreigner to understand that"

[A Doctor Speaks]

Evra v Suárez

Not that I would approve of racism, but Evra & Suarez strike me as a pair of spoilt brats. So it's hard to care what insults they throw at each other.

Would be far more bothered about what happens on much lesser playing fields as an example of prevailing views which are often rather more unpleasant.

And not always just from 'white' people, but rather more universal that people will sometimes admit.

Which is why we should be bothered far more about the complacent actions of that fool Blatter than a couple of PL 'prima donnas'.

[EIM]

Evra v Suárez

A Doctor Speaks wrote:

Not that I would approve of racism, but Evra & Suarez strike me as a pair of spoilt brats. So it's hard to care what insults they throw at each other.

Would be far more bothered about what happens on much lesser playing fields as an example of prevailing views which are often rather more unpleasant.

And not always just from 'white' people, but rather more universal that people will sometimes admit.

Which is why we should be bothered far more about the complacent actions of that fool Blatter than a couple of PL 'prima donnas'.

Fucking idiot.

[dalliance]

Evra v Suárez

Bored, I'm not quite sure you are getting the gist of what I was saying in the post where I talked about Blatter's comments on Terry's infidelities.

[dalliance]

Evra v Suárez

Fucking idiot

You missed out babbling. I had to read it several times to get the remotest idea of what he was trying to say.

[G-Man]

Evra v Suárez

He's saying that racism is cool if you don't like the abused person much, and goes on to explain how much he likes the Daily Mail.

[A Doctor Speaks]

Evra v Suárez

Why would anyone like the Daily Mail?
And even those cretins wouldn't say it's 'cool'.

Sheriff John Stone wrote:

Fucking idiot.

But of course you've experienced racism, so you'd know.

As ever, wow.

[Diable Rouge]

Evra v Suárez

The point is, he's struggling to understand "what prevailing views" are "far more unpleasant" than racism - you could argue homophobia, for instance, but racism is the more pernicious and persistent cancer in the game, which is why that has to be the priority for eradication. Likewise, about the universality of abuse, whether it's white-on-black, black-on-white, or black-on-black, no-one here's arguing that the skin colour of the abuser mitigates their offence.

[G-Man]

Evra v Suárez

What a stupid statement to make, A Doctor Speaks. You don't need to have been raped to have empathy with a rape victim.

I thought you like the Daily Mail because you sound like a Daily Mail reader.

So are you withdrawing your idiotic suggestion that racism is not an issue worth raising if one dislikes the abuse victim?

[EIM]

Evra v Suárez

A Doctor Speaks wrote:

Why would anyone like the Daily Mail?
And even those cretins wouldn't say it's 'cool'.

Sheriff John Stone wrote:

Fucking idiot.

But of course you've experienced racism, so you'd know.

As ever, wow.

Fucking idiot.

[EIM]

Evra v Suárez

G.Man wrote:

What a stupid statement to make, A Doctor Speaks. You don't need to have been raped to have empathy with a rape victim.

I thought you like the Daily Mail because you sound like a Daily Mail reader.

So are you withdrawing your idiotic suggestion that racism is not an issue worth raising if one dislikes the abuse victim?

Ther eis no point enganging this man in any sort of conversation. His pointed refusal to answer any question put to him could be equally viewed as stupidity or evasiveness.

[A Doctor Speaks]

Evra v Suárez

G.Man wrote:

What a stupid statement to make, A Doctor Speaks. You don't need to have been raped to have empathy with a rape victim.

I thought you like the Daily Mail because you sound like a Daily Mail reader.

So are you withdrawing your idiotic suggestion that racism is not an issue worth raising if one dislikes the abuse victim?

Clearly you've not met many Daily Mail readers.

I dislike both players and don't care what they think of each other.

Racism, homophobia and the like are issues I'm rather address at the grass roots than worry about overpaid clowns in the PL bubble.

Talking of circus performers, see SJS is well versed in the art of hypocrisy, as ever.

[EIM]

Evra v Suárez

A Doctor Speaks wrote:

G.Man wrote:

What a stupid statement to make, A Doctor Speaks. You don't need to have been raped to have empathy with a rape victim.

I thought you like the Daily Mail because you sound like a Daily Mail reader.

So are you withdrawing your idiotic suggestion that racism is not an issue worth raising if one dislikes the abuse victim?

Clearly you've not met many Daily Mail readers.

I dislike both players and don't care what they think of each other.

Racism, homophobia and the like are issues I'm rather address at the grass roots than worry about overpaid clowns in the PL bubble.

Talking of circus performers, see SJS is well versed in the art of hypocrisy, as ever.

It's entirely possible to do both without any contradiction.

[Raulcito]

Evra v Suárez

Moonlight shadow wrote:

Re Suarez having played in the Netherlands and therefore should be aware that "negro" is a racist epithey, I'm not entirely sure this is right. A few years ago, a chap from Rotterdam worked at IBM with me and once he casually used the word "negro" to describe a black player. I pointed out to him how dodgy that terminology was and he was rather surprised. He explained to me that in Holland, it is quite a correct term and it is in fact calling someone "black" whwartz I think) that is seen as racist.

I would like to have a Dutch speaker corroboration for that as it happens.

As a matter of fact, a lot of people in the Netherlands consider both epithets fair play. It is important to point out that there is no historical negative association implicitly present in the usage of the word, such as it is in the States with the N-word.

Personally, I do consider calling someone 'a negro' morally questionable, as it strongly conveys the message that someone who is black belongs to a certain specific group, along with all other blacks, that is absolutely different from others. I'd rather say Evra is a black person than 'a negro'.

Concerning the Suárez case, however, the point is precisely that 'black' is 'negro' in Spanish. Having lived in Buenos Aires for a short while (which is culturally very similar to Uruguay) one thing that I noticed, and repeatedly felt uncomfortable with, is the widespread usage of calling people on their looks. Friend or no friend, people call others on how they look. Flaco (a slim/thin person), gordo (a fat person), and yes, negro too. All the time. And most of the time affectionately. The negro thing shocked me it first, even when friends used it to one another, but at some point I started to realise that it was part of their culture to not shy away from how one looks. I personally would never say someone was fat to their face, but in Argentina many did not see why one couldn't. In saying someone was slim, fat, or black for that matter, no implicit judgement was necessarily conveyed.

Of course, Argentina has very few black people, Uruguay has a little more. I'm not sure about Uruguay, but I know that
Argentina does not have a history of employing black slaves, which probably accounts for much of the different perspective their culture holds towards calling out people's skin colour. There's no negative history of power division between blacks and whites, as there obviously was in England and France.

That's not to say racism doesn't exist in these countries of course, towards indigenous people in the 19th century, and right now especially towards immigrant Bolivians, Paraguayans, and Peruvians. But that's another matter altogether.

Considering all this, and the way Suárez used 'negrito' towards Evra, it seems to me it was all a wind-up, almost as if he said 'sweetheart' sarcastically while patting him on the head, after he'd just fouled him. Still a nasty thing to do, but not necessarily racist.

[Jimmy Bignutz]

Evra v Suárez

ADS, do you think that what happens in the high-profile Premier League might just have an influence one what people do at grass roots level?

[Bored Of Education]

Evra v Suárez

Bored, I'm not quite sure you are getting the gist of what I was saying in the post where I talked about Blatter's comments on Terry's infidelities.

I am pretty much addressing that as well, although what Terry did to Bridge and, to an extent, Vanessa Perroncel, while appalling, is nowhere near as bad as racism, obviously.

Having said that, again, I can't see that, if you take a dim view on shagging your mate's girlfriend in one country, you don't think that that is a moral that holds true in others - rather than thinking that the savages don't know any better. You know, we have addressed matters like slavery, FGM etc on the idea that Western morals hold universally. Certainly, racist language should be treated the same and, although I wouldn't hold adultery at the same level as any of those former three, the idea of holding universal values and principles still holds true, I think

Wow, football, eh?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Evra v Suárez

Hang on, I was very clear that I was wholly onside with our low tolerance of racism compared with much of the rest of the world. I was making the point that elsewhere our standards are not necessarily global standards and to expect them to be followed as such by Blatter and others is very naive.

but blatter is head of a multinational organization with the crushing of all racially based insults as a major objective. It is a little like the Director general of the UN coming out saying that he loves people. Particularly in stews.

[Bored Of Education]

Evra v Suárez

Funnily enough, I was going to say cannibalism as one of my examples along with slavery and FGM but decided against it

[hobbes]

Evra v Suárez

I can't help thinking that if Suarez both personally and publicly apologised to Evra explaining that Negrita (if that's what it was) isn't considered a negative term in Uruguay but he understands that it's perfectly reasonable that Evra should have thought otherwise and he's sorry for the offence even though it was unintentional this would be a good outcome all round. Liverpool banging on about Evra being punished if Suarez was found innocent is just inflammatory and stupid. And has meant the FA had to charge him, really. Unless It could be proved that Evra was actually lying - which he obviously wasn't and isn't then whatever happens to Suarez shouldn't have any repercussions on Evra.

[G-Man]

Evra v Suárez

That would have been the most sensible response, hobbes. But that isn't an option anymore. If Evra was telling the truth, then Liverpool should be held accountable for alleging that he lied, effectively committing an act of slander every bit as shocking as Ferguson's questioning the fitness of a referee.

[hobbes]

Evra v Suárez

Yes. I don't disagree. Did they allege that though, or did they just say "if he did, he should be punished." it's hair splitting, I know but the sort of loophole the FA love because it avoids confrontation.