Juan Sebastian Veron

[Guest]

Juan Sebastian Veron

They would all have done well there.

Keane was a formidable enough operator to be a top-class performer in any league, in any era. Gerrard's speed and strength would see him go through the current Serie A teams like a mechanical digger. Lampard, whose game does not rely on pace, would find the tempo of the league straightforward enough to handle and would almost certainly grab 15-20 goals a season. (This is all with the proviso that they didn't suffer acclimatisation/culture shock issues when they got there.)

A different question would be whether the three of them would have been ultra-successful in Serie A during its glory days (i.e. roughly 1982-1995), in which case I reckon only Keane would have managed to do so. But I don't think Juan Veron would have massively stood out from the pack in Serie A in that era either, because the standard was pretty incredible.

[Ray de Galles]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Bored of Education wrote:

Now, turning this on its head, would anyone say that, for example, Roy Keane, Steven Gerrard and Lampard would make successful switches to Seria A?

Yes (in his playing days), maybe, yes (in the current Serie A but they couldn't afford or tempt him I'd imagine).

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

You couldn't accuse that guy of not fulfilling his potential.

I also wouldn't accuse him of playing in the EPL which is where I thought we were going. If we are talking about comparing great Argentinian players then that is another discussion and I probably wouldn't disagree in taking Simeone over Veron.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Struggle maybe a bit harsh which is why I didn't use the phrase but he wouldn't achieve anywhere near what he has done in the EPL.

freddie kanoute? florent sinama pongolle? giuseppi Rossi?

Part of the reason veron is bursting a gut (comparatively) in argentina right now is because he is still living with the blame for letting down argentina in 2002. the players in that team are loathed for letting down the country at its lowest point.

[Guest]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Simeone would have been a big success in England, had he gone there. He could play football, he worked very hard, and he wasn't afraid of a challenge (in either sense).

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

I would have said yes to Keane, no to Gerrard (apart from now, if there really has been that drop off in the last season but the leg irons may slow him down) and maybe to Lampard.

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Simeone would have been a big success in England, had he gone there. He could play football, he worked very hard, and he wasn't afraid of a challenge (in either sense).

Yeah, probably

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

A different question would be whether the three of them would have been ultra-successful in Serie A during its glory days (i.e. roughly 1982-1995), in which case I reckon only Keane would have managed to do so. But I don't think Juan Veron would have massively stood out from the pack in Serie A in that era either, because the standard was pretty incredible.

You are right but I reckon Keane is also probably the only one that would have stood out at the time that Veron was doing well.

What are the fingers pointing to as to the cause of this degrading of Serie A as far as technique is concerned?

[Bruno]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Inter are playing Chelsea tonight you know, in the WORLD FOOTBALL SOCCER CHALLENGE COMPETITION CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNAMENT out in California, so all questions as to technical proficiency will be answered.

With Veron it may just come down to temperament. He's undoubtedly a classy player when he does the business, but I can definitely see his mood affecting his game. He may just not have been happy in England. Maybe he didn't like being pressed off the ball or the crunching tackles or whatever, and he didn't think he should have to adapt. Doesn't mean he couldn't have; just that he didn't. Says nothing much about his basic ability I don't think.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Juan Sebastian Veron

around the time that veron was doing well in serie A 99-00 00-1 and 01-02, only one italian team made it to the quarter finals of the CL, and even then they were horribly butchered by valencia

by then serie A was the third strongest league, and was already starting into a precipitous decline.

The causes were the usual, hubris, insularity, they individualized the tv deals and All bar three clubs effectively went bankrupt. That will cripple squad levels.

Also don't forget that the chairmen of fiorentina, lazio and parma went to jail for fraud.

The president of Milan had to become prime minister of Italy to stay out of jail, juventus were pumping their players up on schizophrenic anti-anxiety drugs and morning sickness pills,and then had to stop, all the while they were pressuring refs.

So basically everyone was spending their time breaking the rules to get a tiny advantage over each other, meanwhile the rest of football kept moving on. Before you realise it, all of the good players are now in spain and england.

Another thing to consider is that the italian economy has floundered since 1994. Spain and England Grew massively in that time period.

[Tactical Genius]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Keane would have been a sucess in Italy.

Steven Gerrard would make mincement of Serie A defences with his power, but i doubt his teammates would pass to him unless he is in a goal scoring position.

Frank Lampard would be a success in any league in Europe even in the early 90's. He has all the abilities of David Platt (minus the arial ability) who was a major success there plus goalscoring midfielders always thrive in Serie A.

You picked some really poor examples to make your point
Ince had a pretty good spell at Inter milan and Antonio Conte and Edgar Davids who were two similar players to Keane were probably were quite successful.

[Bruno]

Juan Sebastian Veron

That's pretty much right except for the bit about "all the good players are in Spain or England" which is nonsense. Italy being a strong footballing culture it's still able to home grow talent, most of whom still play in Italy, and there are of course many others.

An incomplete list of some good players still in Italy, off the top of my head:

Balotelli, Cambiasso, Maicon, Diego Milito, (Eto'o & Hleb & Lucio), Materazzi, Samuel, Santon, Stankovic, Zanetti, Flamini, Gattuso, Inzaghi, Nesta, Pato, Ronaldinho, Pirlo, Seedorf, Zambrotta, Frey, Gilardino, Jovetic, Montolivo, Mutu, Amauri, Buffon, Chiellini, Diego, Melo, Giovinco, Del Piero, Trezeguet, Aquilani, Baptista, De Rossi, Juan, Mexes, Panucci, Perrotta, Totti, Vucinic, Acquafresca, Crespo, Palladino, D'Agostino, Di Natale, Pepe, Quagliarella, Lavezzi, Pendev, Zarate, Cassano, Pazzini, Ledesma. . .

I know I know, most of them are in fact shit. Or old. I think they're good, though, and I also think a lot of the lesser known players are pretty decent. Problem is there probably aren't as many good players in Italy, per team, as there are in England (not sure about Spain). It's not the league it was, but it's far from bush league.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Juan Sebastian Veron

haha, there are a lot of players in their 30's aren't there.

but look at that list, only maicon, cambiasso, milito, eto'o, hleb, flamini, pato, jovetic, diego, melo, mexes, vucinic, lavezzi, pendev, and zarate are foreign and under 30.

Of that list only pato is very good, and he's going to leave sooner rather than later and I still refuse to believe that Eto'o has wound up there.

I like vucinic, and I think he could be a really good player if he moves, as could jovetic. But it's a hell of a long long way from the three dutchmen, the three germans and ma-gi-ca.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Ince had a pretty good spell at Inter milan and Antonio Conte and Edgar Davids who were two similar players to Keane were probably were quite successful.

Edgar davids dreams that he was similar to roy keane.

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

You picked some really poor examples to make your point

Those weren't put up to prove my point. They were just points for discussion. I made my point with Shearer and Owen. HArry has pointed out that Owen did well enough in the limited time he played. I still have a suspicion that, Veron-like, he would have fallen away and, again Veron-like, he would probably suffered from injuries of course.

I also don't think that Rooney would adapt to playing Serie A.

I already considered Keane to be good enough to play in Serie A

Steven Gerrard would make mincement of Serie A defences with his power, but i doubt his teammates would pass to him unless he is in a goal scoring position.

With his poower in falling to the ground for penalty appeals? Gerrard is genuinely another one I defintely think would struggle. The times when his long shots are on target would add something to Serie A, I suppose.

My wife insisted that I go to sleep and stop talking to people about such stupid things and, in the meantime, I have genuinely warmed to the suggestion that Lampard would do well. Well, not "warmed" exactly as it is Lampard.

There are several issues being addressed in this thread.

The original one about whether Man Utd and Chelsea fans wish they have kept hold of Veron. I am not in a position to answer that.

Is Veron's position as a great player diminished because he couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the EPL? I think it is ludicrous to suggest this.

I can't remember whether anyone is saying that Serie A is presently lesser technically than the EPL but the suggestion is that it is getting that way. I still can't say that it is but, if it is, it isn't from improvement in the EPL, I would suggest.

[Ray de Galles]

Juan Sebastian Veron

The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:

Another thing to consider is that the italian economy has floundered since 1994. Spain and England Grew massively in that time period.

It's also worth pointing out that with the weakness of the £ to the euro and the 50% tax rate about to come in that the flow of top players is now likely to reverse a little away from the EPL. It has quite possibly had a periodic high point in the last four or so years and Spain's (and maybe even Italy's eventually) top clubs will be a more attractive financial destination.

[Ray de Galles]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Bored of Education wrote:

Is Veron's position as a great player diminished because he couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the EPL? I think it is ludicrous to suggest this.

Of course it's diminished. If you were a complete failure at the two dominant clubs in one of the world's major leagues then of course any status as a "great" player is called in to question at least. This isn't a pro-EPL thing either, there'll always be something of a question mark against Bergkamp, for instance, because he failed to deliver in Serie A when that league was at or near it's peak (he did however, do more than Veron in international tournament finals).

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

I am fascinated by this.

If I am reading this right, TMK and, to an extent, Harry feel that technical merits of a league depend upon how many foreign players they can attract.

The EPL has, what, 50% British players regularly starting and Serie A has nearer 75% Italian. Assuming that my estimates are roughly correct* and no-one is disputing Italian players are technically better at football rather than greater athletes*, that means that the EPL has to rely upon the finances of its clubs. As Harry alludes, these are very shaky foundations.

*I stand to be corrected as you guys fairly obviously are more frequent watchers of Serie A.

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Of course it's diminished. If you were a complete failure at the two dominant clubs in one of the world's major leagues then of course any status as a "great" player is called in to question at least. This isn't a pro-EPL thing either, there'll always be something of a question mark against Bergkamp, for instance, because he failed to deliver in Serie A when that league was at or near it's peak (he did however, do more than Veron in international tournament finals).

Leaving aside fantasy football of whether players like Maradona would adapt to the EPL and whatnot, do you regard Ince and Beckham as better players than Veron as they were able to adapt to other leagues?

Genuine question

[Ray de Galles]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Bruno wrote:

With Veron it may just come down to temperament. Maybe... he didn't think he should have to adapt. Doesn't mean he couldn't have; just that he didn't. Says nothing much about his basic ability I don't think.

But a failing in temperament or a refusal to adapt is actually WORSE than a technical failing as it means the play is probably just too up himself to bother. That's a waste of the wages the club and supporters pay him and of his and his team mates talents.

Anyway, I don't think the "maybe he could but just didn't want to" argument gets us anywhere in a serious discussion. The only evidence we have is that Veron didn't adapt and without a shrink's report I think the safe assumption is that he couldn't. This is top level sport not the arts.

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

I know what you are saying but it is a fairly safe assumption that, for instance, Rush's failure was down to other issues apart from his abilities, isn't it?

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Actually, as you would a favourite History project, I am feeling quite protective of serious quality of this thread especially after reading some of the ludicrousness of the Ibra/Eto'o and Ronaldo/sattelite TV threads.

With this in mind, so I will down play my "ludicrous" suggestion to "highly questionable" because, you know, I am questioning it, erm, highly.

I have also, in a spirit of fair play, been rethinking my nailed-on suggestion of Shearer not making it in Serie A after considering Ravanelli's success there.

Mind you, Shearer wouldn't have been indulged by, cough, sympathetic referees in the same way as he was here so he may have much more time suspended. Similar with Gerrard.

While I am about it, Keane, Gerrard and Lampard, in their respective "pomps" in La Liga, what think ye?

[Bored Of Education]

Juan Sebastian Veron

This is top level sport not the arts.

You will forgive me if I pinch this for next team-talk I take in the upcoming Under 10s season? Certainly better than the "What the crocodile hat was that? There's no postbox,there's no shuttlecock and where's the jelly giraffe eh? Everytime that fruity acorn gets that alarm clock, I want you to snowflake their teapot..now you get out there and you play your palm trees off." I was considering

[Kid A]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Harry Truscott wrote:

This isn't a pro-EPL thing either, there'll always be something of a question mark against Bergkamp, for instance, because he failed to deliver in Serie A when that league was at or near it's peak (he did however, do more than Veron in international tournament finals).

Bergkamp had only one year in Serie A and Inter misused him as a target man. I think Inter failed him rather than the other way round. With his technical ability he should have been a huge success in Italy.

On a smaller scale but similarly, Jon Dahl Tomasson at Newcastle.

[Guest]

Juan Sebastian Veron

Bergkamp was actually at Internazionale for two seasons, not one, though it's an easy mistake to make given how anonymous he was there.

Inter didn't use him as a target man, they weren't that sort of a team. It was more a case of them playing in a much more careful and cautious style than Ajax, taking a lot longer to get the ball up front to him, and he found it difficult to get used to. Plus he was 24 years old and Italian defences were a hell of a lot more streetwise than Dutch ones. It was not too surprising he struggled.

Darko Pancev, who at the time was an even better finisher than Bergkamp, died on his arse there too.