Noticed that Veron captained Estudiantes to the Copa Libertadores last week. There's every chance that he'll now emulate his Dad in winning the World Club Cup with the same club in December. That's a pretty neat way to finish off a career that, for English fans at least, will be remembered more for several barren but expensive seasons at Man United and Chelsea. Did they just not get the best out of him? Clearly, his more recent achievements prove he did, after all, have plenty more to offer. In hindsight, do fans of either club wish they'd kept hold of him, now?
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Said it before and I'll say it again.
Veron when given a bit of time and space on the ball in midfield = world class.
Veron when closed down quickly and harassed = an irrelevance.
It's why he did so well in Italy and so poorly in England. In Serie A (even when it was a stronger league than the Premiership), you had those extra few seconds to dwell on the ball in the centre of the pitch and look around you to see what was on. When Veron found himself deprived of that, he couldn't respond or adapt. The likes of Sam Dalla Bona and Per Frandsen used to walk all over him as a result. -
Juan Sebastian Veron
Tactics my hole. He was too slow and too weak. like shevchenko he started pretty well because people were afraid of his reputation, until his basic lack of physical power just rendered him useless.
loads of players can be really good if given enough space and time.
and it was benito carbone that caused the most embarrassing moment, when he smashed him off the ball and squared it to boksic to gently roll it past barthez. Benito fucking CarboneComment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
So Veron is the Argentinian Tom Huddlestone?Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
the one thing that tom huddlestone doesn't lack is physical presence.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Veron looked a good player when he joined Man Utd for the first few months but quickly faded. I think teams cottoned on that he didn't like the physicality of the PL. I remember watching one game v Deportivo La Coruna where he was superb, obviously European football suited his style more.
I don't think many Chelsea fans will remember him with affection.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
He scored for Chelsea when they won at Anfield on the opening weekend of 03/04. I can't remember him doing a single other thing for them.
Praise for his Deportivo performance has to be tempered by the fact that Man Utd were already 2-0 up from the away leg and Deportivo were frantically throwing men forward.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
All of us that watched the Copa Libertadores final (i.e., those that posted in the other thread) recognize Veron for what he is--a golden god. Choosing his boyhood club Estudiantes over Boca and River, donating significant amounts of money to improve their training facilities and negotiating to help to get their stadium renovated, the 2006 Apertura playoff against Boca, taking Estudiantes to the Copa Sudamericana final, voted South American Footballer of the Year, and now winning the Copa Libertadores, the best international club competition in all of football. Legend.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Tactical Genius wrote:
You owe me a new keyboard.So Veron is the Argentinian Tom Huddlestone?Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
You might be interested in this article by the excellent Tim Vickery on the BBC blog.
For what it's worth, every time I've seen Veron since he returned to Estudiantes he's been the best player on the pitch and has run the game with the sort of imperious display that only great players are capable of.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
The Mighty Kubelgog!!! wrote:
Where did Carbone and Boksic play together?Tactics my hole. He was too slow and too weak. like shevchenko he started pretty well because people were afraid of his reputation, until his basic lack of physical power just rendered him useless.
loads of players can be really good if given enough space and time.
and it was benito carbone that caused the most embarrassing moment, when he smashed him off the ball and squared it to boksic to gently roll it past barthez. Benito fucking Carbone
Edit: ah, totally forgot about the former's spell at Boro. Apologies.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
i watched the first leg of the libertadores final and it was pretty grim stuff. the outstanding individual was the cruzeiro keeper, even though cruzeiro were slightly better on the night. veron didn't really stand out. i only saw the highlights of the second leg and he started the move for estudiantes' equaliser with a clever change of tempo in midfield.
inca acclaims him for playing for his home town club ahead of boca and river, donating his own money, etc. but those choices are open only to the super-rich. and veron is decidedly that after the daring heists he pulled off at old trafford and stamford bridge.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
So his whole career in the EPL was a Robin Hood thing?Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Yep. You gabachos got played.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Verón's a peculiar player. For starters, as the person on OTF who's probably seen the most of him since he returned to Estudiantes (I fucking hope I am, anyway), I'd like to agree with what Cantagalo says almost unreservedly.
At Chelsea he was injured too much to really do much. It could be argued that that was because he didn't like the physicality of the English game, but I don't think he can be blamed for that.
And as the Vickery article Cantagalo links to points out, Manchester United played him a lot further forward than he'd previously been used. We seemed to buy him under the impression that he was a classic Argentine #10, and as everyone quickly became aware he wasn't and isn't.
I always remember one pass in Europe, Verón standing around ten yards inside United's half, facing his own defence as the ball was played out, and seemingly without looking he turned and volleyed the ball probably 50+ yards, straight to David Beckham, who was able to take it down without breaking stride. I can't remember what came next, but it doesn't matter.
There are some players of whom everyone says that if they've not made it in a certain league (this is often the league the speaker is most familiar with), then it's their failing. But for some players I think it's got be accepted that it's just as much of a shame for that league. If the Premier League can't find room for a Verón or a Riquelme, a Messi or a Javier Pastore (trust me)... well, then I'm glad I'm able to watch leagues that can.
Anyway, for what it's worth, here's what I thought of Estudiantes' win. And Cantagalo's link is the first I've seen of the Vickery article, which should tell you something about how singularly brilliant that pass was if you couldn't catch the match. And you can see the goals here (thanks for the plugging opportunity, Rogin).Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
for some players I think it's got be accepted that it's just as much of a shame for that league. If the Premier League can't find room for a Verón or a Riquelme, a Messi or a Javier Pastore (trust me)...
Hold on a second, it's not a case of the English league not being able to "find room" for someone like Veron. It's that Veron couldn't play well there because he wasn't able to change his game in any way.
Gianfranco Zola absolutely thrived in England, Arjen Robben did it for a while, Andrei Arshavin is currently doing it with Arsenal. All those players are much shorter and slighter than Veron, and their game, like his, was/is technically-based instead of power-oriented (and there are loads more examples of similar players doing well in the Premiership, but it's late and I'm going to bed in a second). They were able to work out English football and shine within it, but he couldn't.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
inca acclaims him for playing for his home town club ahead of boca and river, donating his own money, etc. but those choices are open only to the super-rich. and veron is decidedly that after the daring heists he pulled off at old trafford and stamford bridge.
Hahahahaha.
windowlicker, you don't have to look too far either. the annoying thing with veron was that Paul scholes, who is smaller and lighter than veron, and not blessed with explosive pace, was actually much better than veron at what veron was supposed to do.
I think that it was that he was ginger and from oldham, rather than swarthy and from argentina that meant that veron was bought in the first place, because scholes and sheringham played some sublime football together in 2000-1.
veron was weak, and slow, both mentally and physically. That is a terrible combination.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
windowlicker wrote:
Yeah, all I'm saying is I like watching him, and if his best football wasn't played in England, what the hell - at least it is / was played somewhere. And why he should've been expected to reinvent his game when we bought him I'm not sure. He'd played his entire career as a deep-lying passing midfielder, we bought him on that basis and then tried sticking him in behind the strikers. If you spend £28 million on a washing machine you shouldn't be too put out to find it can't pick up Sky Sports.for some players I think it's got be accepted that it's just as much of a shame for that league. If the Premier League can't find room for a Verón or a Riquelme, a Messi or a Javier Pastore (trust me)...
Hold on a second, it's not a case of the English league not being able to "find room" for someone like Veron. It's that Veron couldn't play well there because he wasn't able to change his game in any way.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Just watch the highlights on Sam's blog. 3:15 in on the video.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
It's a shame that Veron's unsuccessful time in England has clouded the judgement of some. The fact that he didn't shine in the English game isn't necessarily a reflection that he lacked that extra few percent to become one of the game's greats.
Look at Ian Rush, for example. His solitary season with Juventus in '87/'88 was something of a failure based on what was expected of him, but does that make him an inferior player?
There are many reasons why a player may not adapt to a particular country and its league. Has Veron ever commented on his time at England?Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
If you spend £28 million on a washing machine you shouldn't be too put out to find it can't pick up Sky Sports.
But at United Veron didn't even do the washing. The raking passes were few and far between, so much so that people are able to remember the individual ones (v Deportivo and Olympiakos).
And why he should've been expected to reinvent his game when we bought him I'm not sure.
No one was asking him to turn into Gennaro Gattuso but the least he could have done was use his head and adapt himself to the different pace a little more.
He really was a damp squib. I think his heart was simply not in it from day one, to be honest.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Historyman,
"Look at Ian Rush, for example. His solitary season with Juventus in '87/'88 was something of a failure based on what was expected of him, but does that make him an inferior player?"
Well that will always be a negative mark in Rush's career insofar as he was not the same player in a liverpool shirt.
Really great players have the nack of adapting their game on the fly to suit different types of opposition and leagues.
It should not be a case of English football finding a space for veron, but Veron finding space in the midfields of the premiership.
He is a very similar player to Pirlo in this matter that he was used to the type of football where you never get actively pressed in midfield until you are in the opposition third so it was a culture shock for him when he was getting opposition midfielders harassing him on the halfway line or strikers dropping deep to disposses him when he picked the ball up off the centre-halves.
It shows a weakness in his game that he is unable to shield the ball successfully or be smart enough to find space under pressure and that is why he failed in England.
And he couldn't tackle a fish supper.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Yeah, I bet theres some great players in the premiership who would be absolute shit in another league or at least mediocre.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
I doubt it other than for personal reasons. English football isn't remotely as insular as it used to be, and most of the great players in the premiership are from abroad, or are used to foreign coaching.
also it's easier to slow down than speed up.Comment
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Juan Sebastian Veron
Tactical Genius wrote:
Pirlo gets harassed in his own half all the time. He shields the ball very well (most of the time, before anyone cites a lapse or three). The teams he plays for, Milan and Italy, normally prefer to play themselves out of trouble instead of clearing, and Pirlo is often instrumental in that.He is a very similar player to Pirlo in this matter that he was used to the type of football where you never get actively pressed in midfield until you are in the opposition third so it was a culture shock for him when he was getting opposition midfielders harassing him on the halfway line or strikers dropping deep to disposses him when he picked the ball up off the centre-halves.
It shows a weakness in his game that he is unable to shield the ball successfully or be smart enough to find space under pressure and that is why he failed in England.
And he couldn't tackle a fish supper.Comment
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