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[Brandenburger Toro]

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to elevate the practices of some people in unions 30 years ago into a general critique of workers organising to further their interests

Where has nef done that? His (?) claim was that

Unions in certain industries can become extremely regressive and undemocratic forces

Nor has he said that the racism thing is "habitual", only that it has happened "at times".

This doesn't exactly debunk his initial claim about OTF's response to any and all criticism of trades unions.

[Duncan Gardner]

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Abu Al Torotoro wrote:

This doesn't exactly debunk his initial claim about OTF's response to any and all criticism of trades unions

I answered that on page two. Refer recent discussion on 'British jobs for British workers'.

[DCI Harry Batt]

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This doesn't exactly debunk his initial claim about OTF's response to any and all criticism of trades unions.

awww bless

[diggedy derek]

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Unions in certain industries can become extremely regressive and undemocratic forces

It's not really been proved how they are or can be forces, just that at times they have been part of corruption generally. That is, it hasn't proved a tendency in any particular direction, merely some incidents of corruption.

However, I think it's an interesting point that's been made. The very nature of institutions in general is often towards conservatism and/or stagnation. I wonder how often this has occurred in unions.

[Brandenburger Toro]

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Derek first time - yeah, and I think you're right. But my point is, he hasn't made the claims others have imputed to him. And when they insist he has, it doesn't exactly quell the impression that such criticism drives people to hysterics.

Derek second time - excellent point, I think you've put your finger on the problem, such as it is.

TonTon - if I post substantive answers to stuff you write, I'm accused of pursuing a vendetta. yet I can't post on the same thread as you without encoutering this moronic shite. have you anything of use to say, or are you just being an asshole gratuitously?

[Er Liquidatore]

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This thread is a bit shit, isn't it? Saved by some good posts from DG and E10 (as usual). Any organisation can act shitty, including unions (as the previously cited racist dockers demo, or mafia involvement in American unions proves), but that doesn't mean organised labour and unionisation is bad per se, but that sometimes it is implemented in a bad, undemocratic way.

LM first post that kicked this hole shebang off is pretty appalling as well, but he's still had some things attributed to him that he never actually said.

Such behaviour is called "bolshie" in common parlance amongst the general population, though not I dare say within left wing circles.

Is it fuck. I grew up in suburban Surrey, I would say about 10% of my friends are truly left wing, maybe less, and I've never heard that term in my life.

[DCI Harry Batt]

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toro - you could stop being such a tedious starfucker, I suppose. Or you could stop worrying about what I've got to say. Or anything else, really, up to you.

[Duncan Gardner]

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The_Liquidator wrote:

This thread is a bit shit, isn't it? Saved by some good posts from DG and E10 (as usual)

Grazie, Signor. Sorry I missed you on the recent trip to Italy/SMR, btw.

Is it fuck. I grew up in suburban Surrey, I would say about 10% of my friends are truly left wing, maybe less, and I've never heard that term [Bolshie] in my life

It's probably an age thing- 'Bolshie' (which actually means 'majority') was widely heard in the 70s and 80s. Encouraged by Thatcherites and the wilder-eyed Tory media.

[Er Liquidatore]

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No probs mate, you weren't in Rome were you?

[Duncan Gardner]

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No closer than Bologna. Some of the younger/ more energetic members of our party took in some all night clubbing in Pisa before catching a train to the game.

There will be plenty of RoI fans in Rome before their match in Bari, should you wish to enjoy the craic with some jolly green japesters.

[Er Liquidatore]

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I tend to stay away from the over-priced shit tip city centre pubs, to be honest. You get a much nicer standard of German beer less than two minutes walk from the flat.

[Brandenburger Toro]

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TonTon - this is the fourth or fifth time you've called me a starfucker. This is the fourth or fifth time I've asked you what is it you think it means.

You never answer, but you usually fuck off the thread for a bit, so either way it's a useful question. So, not to come over all princess bride on you, again, but what do you mean by starfucker? You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

You know what arsehole means, though, right?

[Brandenburger Toro]

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LM first post that kicked this hole shebang off is pretty appalling as well, but he's still had some things attributed to him that he never actually said.

precisely.

[Brandenburger Toro]

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WTF?

Are you accusing me of being Jac Vanek, TonTon?

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

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LM first post that kicked this hole shebang off is pretty appalling as well,

Well, it wasn't my best post ever, I must admit. It was driven largely by the mood I was in as a reaction to Wyatt's post, reply no. 1 on this thread, see top of page 1:

We badly need Lord Mauleverer's angle here, I think.

Next time I shall restrict myself to a "fuck off Wyatt with your smug gratuitous provocation". Then there'll be less to argue about.

[Tubby Isaacs]

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I don't know if it was reported fairly but postal unions didn't seem concerned about the supposedly very large amount of stuff that gets pinched from sorting depots. I'm willing to be corrected on that.

There has been in the past some pretty shoddy stuff performed by some underground staff. The King's Cross fire inquiry revealed bunking off and no-one bothering to clean up rubbish under the escalator. Thieving before ticket barriers was endemic. See Christian Woolmar.

Still, I think the biggest problem with this sort of debate is that it conflates being "bolshie" with bad practice/dishonesty. They aren't in the least the same, and it's a deliberate ploy to confuse them, to suggest that political radicals are just interested in not doing any work.

[E10 Rifle]

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All the practices you're talking about there Tubbs can equally be as attributable to failings of management than unions. Who was inspecting the rubbish clearing at Kings Cross? And can you substantiate some of the stuff about the postal unions?

You're right, though, that the equation of the bolshie union activists with the lazy or dishonest ones is highly misleading. Ditto the conservative, bureacratic ones with the often more radical grassroots activists.

For what it's worth, from my experience in an admittedly slightly untypical industry, is that standards of training, discipline and work quality have been considerably higher in the unionised workplaces I've worked in than the non-unionised ones. I don't believe this to be a coincidence.

Also I don't get this idea that OTF is some militantly pro-union forum that stamps down on anti-union ideas. I know I'm seeing this from one side of the fence, as it were, but membership of trade unions among OTFers is pitifully low, and that comes across pretty often in debates here in a lack of understanding of what unions actually do and the pressures they're under. I know this sounds patronising on my part, but it does seem notable sometimes.

[Wyatt Earp]

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Tubby Isaacs wrote:

Still, I think the biggest problem with this sort of debate is that it conflates being "bolshie" with bad practice/dishonesty.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. In my (admittedly white-collar) union experience, there's actually almost no overlap between yer Hard Left Troublemakers and the types who used to support, and benefit from, cosily restrictive and corrupt working practices. The last thing you could accuse the latter of was too much zeal on matters of principle.

[Duncan Gardner]

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Broadly what E10 and Wyatt said, although there are distinctions between corruption (eg stealing on the job as detailed above), exclusivity (ie, workers opposed to greater diversity among their colleagues) and reasonable custom and practice established over time. The second might offend our left wing consciences, and the last often look anachronistic, but tough. Employers need to realise there are costs in getting rid of it.

[WOM]

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E10 Rifle wrote:

Also I don't get this idea that OTF is some militantly pro-union forum that stamps down on anti-union ideas. I know I'm seeing this from one side of the fence, as it were, but membership of trade unions among OTFers is pitifully low, and that comes across pretty often in debates here in a lack of understanding of what unions actually do and the pressures they're under. I know this sounds patronising on my part, but it does seem notable sometimes.

Hello. I'm WOM, and you may remember me from other union-related rucks such as....

I've been enjoying this thread from a distance. Interesting points of view from both sides. Just a couple of thoughts: honestly, I can't believe you stand behind that first sentence in the quote above. "Stamps down?" How about 'takes out into the alley and kicks until there's blood coming from the ears and mouth?' No, there isn't widespread union membership on here, but what there is is incredibly er....dedicated to the cause.

I agree completely with your second point. After the extensive rucks we've (all of us) had about unions, I've never come away with a clear understanding of their (current) benefit. Debates tend to be "you're either for us (right) or against us (wrong)". There's very little gray area. And there's very little discussion of what the genuine benefits of union membership are. My perception is that pro-union folks are so far past the 'why' question that they never think to go back a few paces and explain it to newbies. It's a 101-type question, but it does need re-answering from time to time.

[E10 Rifle]

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Well, it's pretty simple really. When I'm trying to persuade people to join the union, I point out the benefits in terms of such things as negotiated wages and conditions, support against potential victimisation, legal advice and networking advantages and the like. Occasionally, I might try the altruistic "well you may not need support but others might", but it tends not to get to that. Though I'd admit to not being the most forceful union recruiter - there are plenty better and more effective than me.

I don't see what's so complicated about that really.