The article says that people in the EU (outside the UK) expected savvy diplomacy.
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Yeah, I got that. I said that nobody "here" seemed to be thinking in those terms. I thought the difference was interesting.Comment
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Is that really true, though?
Weren’t there Tory “sensibles” who genuinely believed that there was a plan?Comment
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By "here" what do you mean? OTF? It seems to me that a large section of the UK population believed (and still believes) that the UK 's representatives are doing a bang up jobComment
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I meant the UK, not OTF.
Polls on "right to leave" seem to be depressingly close, but I think I've seen some about doing a good job on Brexit which show less contentment.Comment
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I think a lot of UK Brexit voters believe in UK exceptionalism. Which includes an exceptionalism in our bureaucracies. They believe that We had the biggest empire because we were so competent at running it, which is why India still has lots of trains that work. They believe that the FCO selects the best and brightest from Oxford and Cambridge and lets them be brilliant and mercurial, version of Our Man In Havana, sharp dressed, always drunk, but utterly brilliant. A version of the David Gower myth of the brilliantly skillful amateur, except these guys are audodidact genius polymaths who understand the cunning workings of the shifty-eyed foreign governments they work with. Who'll then come back and rip the EU to shreds with their diplomatic skilz. If they'd read Fitzroy Maclean's Eastern Approaches, they'd totally picture every member of the FCO being Maclean during his time in Moscow.Comment
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I don't know. Most of them have kept their heads down and, when pushed, talked up Theresa May.Originally posted by ursus arctos View PostComment
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I think that's true, and has been so for my lifetime in spite of continuing evidence to the contrary.Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
What I find more curious is that otherwise intelligent people from elsewhere (like Canada) still buy it. Not as many as in the UK certainly, but a sizeable number. I've discussed the phenomenon with a number of them over the years, and it seems to come down to presentation. When a British PM speaks, even Theresa May, it has gravitas (even if the content is utter mendacious bullshit.) Similarly the BBC sounds as if it's broadcasting from the centre of the English speaking world (though not quite so much these days.) Basically it's a successful long-con, one that's been played for several hundred years.Comment
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It is also a factor in the still extant belief in much if the developing world that nefarious British interests (often including the Queen) are the go to prime suspect for any ills that befall them.Comment
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whereas here in Ireland, we're pretty sure that the UK establishment couldn't find their own arse, even if they used both hands, and were shooting live screeching monkeys out of their anus.Comment
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Whaddya mean, "now"?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-43633204
“Leave.EU 'now a far-right organisation', Labour MP says”Comment
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The irony, utterly lost on Brexiters, is that being a member of EU (an influential one at that) served as a brake to that slow descent into irrelevance. The brakes are now off.
Genuinely curious to see how this realisation will pan out, the smart money is probably on a Rees-Moog type running the country by 2025 but...Comment
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Whoever's curating the Irish Border Twitter a/c is doing a superb job:
https://mobile.twitter.com/BorderIri...82290707091456Comment
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In one of the godawful referendum, I only saw one person make the argument that the UK was more powerful as part of the EU- by Amber Rudd, of all people.Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View PostComment
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Tubbs, please, whatever you do, do NOT watch this programme: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...night-29032018 (from 26 mns onwards – do not even watch the "Immigrants, clear off!" woman at 28’40 in, 31', 38', 38’23 etc. or the Remainer-who’s-now-a-Leaver bloke).Comment
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The EU have given the UK team fleas in their ears over their Border proposal:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-irish-borderComment
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Good, you scared me for a moment there when you went off screen, I thought you were going to have a wee gander at it and you know how much I worry for your health. I can't tell you how glad I am to know that you’re safe and sound.
Another useful word of warning then: whatever you do, do NOT listen either to this three-hour long 5Live programme "Brexit Special live from Middlesbrough". Please don't, just don't.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09wrf2g#playComment
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Does Nicky Campbell present it? That’s the only way it could be even worse than it sounds. Cold sick bucket of Brexit indeed.Comment
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Tubby, do NOT touch this with a barge pole either: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...e-brexit-panel
I think so yes, only listened to approx. 10 minutes the other morning while shaving and stuff, it was more than enough.Originally posted by Lang Spoon View PostLast edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 05-04-2018, 22:35.Comment
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The real difficulty with being a Unionist politician, is the need to always talk nonsense.
Here's David Trimble.
“What is happening now is that people are talking up the issue of Brexit and the border for the benefit of a different agenda from the agreement,” Trimble said. “The one thing that would provoke loyalist paramilitaries is the present Irish government saying silly things about the border and the constitutional issue. If it looks as though the constitutional arrangements of the agreement, based on the principle of consent, are going to be superseded by so-called ‘special EU status’ then that is going to weaken the union and undermine the very agreement that Dublin says it wants to uphold.”
The thing is that this sort of thinking is a level above anything that the DUP is capable of thinking of. But If you went into a negotiating room with the EU, and put forward that idea, they would stare at you like you were an idiot. And then point out that a Brexit that leads to an introduction of a border is a constitutional change that ignores the principle of consent, and this is simply the EU doing the bare minimum to ensure that Brexit doesn't lead to a hard border.
The Unionists will then say that they can't stomach a border in the Irish Sea because it will lead to a separation from the UK, and the EU will reply that there need be no border if the whole of the UK stays in the customs union. But also they will then point out the various different ways in which Northern Ireland has a separate system to the UK, and will then make the point that this is not that different to Abortion. Then they will point out that Northern Ireland will remain a part of the UK, be ultimately governed from London, the queen will still be head of state, and Northern Ireland will still send MPs to the House of parliament. So in what meaningful way will Northern Ireland be any less British? And while they should clearly switch to the Euro on FDI grounds, they can still use Sterling with the queen's head on it and everything.
Then the conversation can move onto how if Northern Ireland leaves the Single market, and CAP, then every single farmer in Northern Ireland will go out of business, because they get 87% of their income from CAP. The Plantation of Ulster would effectively be reversed in five years. But only after being cut out of most of their markets. Then point out the attractions of becoming the part of Northern Ireland that remains in the Single Market. It finally gives Northern Ireland a reason to exist, and an economic rationale, that only makes sense if the North remains part of the UK.
Then they will point out that the alternative to the EU's plan is an ultra hard brexit, followed closely by total economic devastation, an outraged Nationalist community, and a defeat in a border poll, and the end of unionism. Then they will remind them about the farmers, offer them a bunch of cash, and tell them to fuck off and stop annoying them.
This bit is fucking hilarious. The thought of David trimble and Arlene foster staring at each other, each waiting for the other to speak first. This story reflects as badly on him as it does on her.
One of Trimble’s most vocal internal critics in the UUP after he backed the Good Friday agreement was Arlene Foster, the leader of the DUP. While he said he sympathises with the problems Foster has to deal with in the absence of a power-sharing government in Belfast, he laughed and added: “Do you know that in all the times when I was UUP leader and she used to be in the party before defecting to the DUP, Arlene never spoke to me once.
“Other internal critics like Jeffrey Donaldson [once an Ulster Unionist now the DUP MP for Lagan Valley] always went out of their way to speak to me even when the UUP was a divided house over the agreement. Jeffrey was always civil with me despite our differences but I cannot recall one occasion where Arlene said anything to me at all.”Comment
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Arlene Foster there, being compared unfavourably with Jeffrey Donaldson.Comment
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Again, the latest Border update has the UK effectively staying in the customs union:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...n-talks-stuck/Comment
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Donaldson is by far the politest of those cunts. He basically understands that part of his job is talking to people. a lot of the others view this as a sign of weakness.Comment
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I think solutions where the EU is supposed to trust the UK to do something are unlikely to get very far with the EU. The EU doesn't trust the UK, I mean aside from the whole Boris Johnson factor, there's This fucking shitstormOriginally posted by Diable Rouge View PostComment
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