Justine Greening/ Continuity Gove

[Moonlight Shadow]

In Switzerland, it is only relatively recently that there has been a modicum of harmonisation between the 26 cantons, before there was vast differences in curriculum but also the class hours, days off, notation system, type of exams...Only tertiary education is under federal control

[Bored Of Education]

The French system would require a great deal of confidence in the people setting the curriculum, which we don't always have.

That's because we have had forty years of successive governments breading distrust of the professional abilities and judgements of teachers, abandoning the post-war consensus and using education as a political football and marketising education.

I think I'd want to avoid it because of the aforementioned Mr Gove's likely influence.

Obviously, Govians have already had their hands on the curriculum for a while. I am always careful to say that a national curriculum should be evidence-based and written by education academics and researchers. It should also be free of any government involvement so that it gets a while to run and isn't taken apart every four years or whenever there is a new Education Minister.

[Tubby Isaacs]

It has been experts writing the curriculum, as far as I know. I can't even find who wrote them, looking now. I can't recall thinking the ones involved with the last rewrite looked outlandish. The outlandish thing was that the government made a huge deal of the curriculum, and then told schools it wanted them to become academies so they could all opt out.

Not that you look for consistency, but I didn't get why, if Education was run by lefty academics, you then got them in to right the curriculum. But I suppose even Gove, despite that comical history curriculum, didn't trust Policy Exchange or ARK to write the real version. Or maybe they did, and ARK wanted to keep its own curriculum copyright.

"The Institute of Education" was a particular bugbear of the Telegraph BTL gang. Was quite funny when one of Gove's curriculum writers was from there.

[Lang Spoon]

Here in Ireland, teachers are esteemed enough that no one thinks anything of the previous Taoiseach (who gave every impression through low cunning or otherwise of being thick as fuck, Ran from almost every tv debate/hard interview after 2011) being a mere teacher, a careers advice teacher at that if I remember right. A half job for a half man in 70s Mayo if ever there was one. Just biding his time till his Da passed on and the Dáil seat was empty and waiting. As his daughter shall do in time.

But apart from the useless nepotism of the Irish system that would see just about any sitting pork barrel distributing TD’s progeny (apart from Sean Fleming’s Troubled kid) elected under the right economic weather, teachers aren’t as denigrated here as in England or Wales. Or Scotland, where they might be slightly more respected, but certainly don’t get paid tons more than other bits of Ukania. And unlike Ireland, the political elite doesn’t include that many teachers along with the innumerable lawyers and Ex Business/NGO types.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Another shite day at school.

The governors have been in and apparently have been slagging off the teaching staff as they are responsible for the bad behaviour because they cannot control the kids and have poor classroom management skills. Well who employed them?

It also got me thinking about the behaviour and why it's so poor and the vast majority to me is simply because the kids don't understand the work. So rather than admit this and look an idiot in front of their mates they cause a scene and deflect attention away from their lack of knowledge. However in doing so they completely fuck up the life chances of the other kids in the class.

In many other countries there is a minimum level of attainment that students are expected to reach so that they can proceed to the following year but this doesn't exist in the UK. I also understand that when this exists it can be open to abuse by those in power but surely there must be some rationale for having it in the UK. Students are moving onto the next level of the curriculum without having the basics and are of course struggling. In my experience, and this is true for most of my colleagues, three behaviour can become unmanageable and out of control with many using the word feral to describe some of the kids.

Anyway it'll soon be time for bed and then another early start to go and try to teach these kids tomorrow and start the whole process again. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves, bureaucracy and behaviour are killing the profession.

[Bored Of Education]

It has been experts writing the curriculum, as far as I know. I can't even find who wrote them, looking now. I can't recall thinking the ones involved with the last rewrite looked outlandish. The outlandish thing was that the government made a huge deal of the curriculum, and then told schools it wanted them to become academies so they could all opt out.

Not that you look for consistency, but I didn't get why, if Education was run by lefty academics, you then got them in to right the curriculum. But I suppose even Gove, despite that comical history curriculum, didn't trust Policy Exchange or ARK to write the real version. Or maybe they did, and ARK wanted to keep its own curriculum copyright.

"The Institute of Education" was a particular bugbear of the Telegraph BTL gang. Was quite funny when one of Gove's curriculum writers was from there.

Who write the curriculum in 2012. (Add in Gove's tinkering as well).

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm really sorry to hear this. I don't understand why we don't have more "redoubling" really. Is there some sort of Ofsted penalty for it?

I wondered before, when Gove was in full flow about his Ebacc proper subjects stuff and "no excuses", if it might not be great for behaviour. If you find it hard or boring, you might piss about. Is this a factor?

The government does seem to appreciate that some kids aren't suited to the Ebacc, and has spent tons on 14-18 training colleges. But if a regular school decides that more vocational options are better, the government seems to consider that bad and soft.

Just to put the tin hat on it, training colleges are failing everywhere. What a way to run a railway.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Who write the curriculum in 2012. (Add in Gove's tinkering as well).

Cheers. I misremembered the process, it's worse than I recall. Maybe the Secondary stuff was better.

That bloke BTL who calls himself Questor is a Conservative Home hack. Dreadful.

[Lang Spoon]

The SNP seem to have been making a hames of the Curriculum for Excellence North of the Wall as well. Mibees we shouldn’t centralise this shit for short term targets and easy targets.

[ChrisJ]

Really sorry to hear that AE. Just remember it’s the society and system that are broken, not you.

Behaviour (in school) is ultimately governed by relationships and they are conditioned by too many factors to simplify but the pattern needs to be set from the top. That’s a positive HT and a strong united SLT. And, of course, as you say, the governors.

Children won’t engage with material that’s too hard for them. They won’t engage with a curriculum that’s not relevant to them.

Just try to keep going and try to keep your energy levels up so you can jump for something better if the chance arises. It sounds cynical I know, but if the leadership and governance of the place is fucked, it’ll only drag you down with it.

It’s not always like that and it’s not everywhere so don’t give up if you can hang on. But don’t blame yourself if you find another way to pay the rent.

Good luck tomorrow.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The SNP seem to have been making a hames of the Curriculum for Excellence North of the Wall as well. Mibees we shouldn’t centralise this shit for short term targets and easy targets.

The SNP were seriously proposing a legal charter to raise attainment at one point.

They've always looked rattled on education, and given that lots of the case for independence is that they'll do stuff better than England, I suppose it's awkward when England beats your PISA scores. But ours aren't what you'd call sustainable, so that might change next time. That's if you want to bother too much with PISA.

[johnr]

That's if you want to bother too much with PISA.

One shouldn't. Ignore it.

[Lang Spoon]

I think (not sure and can’t be arsed to check) the the Scots Gov actually took Scotland out of the PISA ratings a few years back. At least that’s what the Sensibles like Farquharson seem to keep saying when being Outraged.

[ChrisJ]

One shouldn't. Ignore it.

This.

Of course, if someone does manage to come up with a way to fairly compare outcomes of curricula designed around the needs of children, across a broad, meaningful range of skills in different cultures and languages, without statistical sleight of hand, fudge or trickery - I'll be really interested. Not driven by it, but definitely interested.

Shan't hold my breath though.

[Gerontophile]

I know nothing about education in the UK. Is there different curricula for, say, history in the different regions?

[ChrisJ]

I know nothing about education in the UK. Is there different curricula for, say, history in the different regions?

Scotland and Wales have their own curricula. I wouldn't know how different the content is. I do know eg. that the NC in England starts at 5 while in Wales it's 7. The required elements for science and history in infants look quite different at a glance - though if teachers are operating thematically and being skills-led, there may be less difference in practice.

It's all online if you're interested.

[Kevin S]

From age 14+, the curriculum taught will reflect the GCSE/A Level specification. For some subjects like maths this means everyone in the country is taught the same content. For other subjects there can be some choice between and within the exam specification, e.g. everyone doing geography GCSE will learn about the distribution and management of a global resource, but some will do water, some will do food and some will do energy.

Schools are largely free to plan 11-14 how they want but will do so to give students the grounding needed to start the GCSE.

[Gerontophile]

Actually meant subject matter.

[Gerontophile]

And thanks Chris. My sister, and her husband were teachers both for 40 years, one history and English, one maths and head teaching. If I were really that interested I would ask them. (And I know that sounds sarcastic, and it is a bit, and it wasn't meant to be, but asking them doesn't let me know what the people on here think/know.)

[Kevin S]

Right. The GCSE is a national qualification rather than regional, so no, everyone has the same subject content across the country.

One of the things about 11-16 worth knowing is that it is ALL about the GCSE.

[Gerontophile]

Sorry Chris. I utterly missed your first sentence. Alison Janney is on TV, and I fanboyed. I apologise to you. But I do not apologise for my intent.

Sorry. I have to be on another thread. I'd love to hear about the differences in the different countries history education, and yes, as I type this, I feel fucking stupid for not asking my sister's husband,

[Lang Spoon]

Right. The GCSE is a national qualification rather than regional, so no, everyone has the same subject content across the country.

One of the things about 11-16 worth knowing is that it is ALL about the GCSE.

Except for viewers in Scotland. Standard Grades up there.

[Kevin S]

Quite. I suppose I wasn't sure what Ger meant by 'regions' - in the old days in England there were local examinations rather than national ones:

[Antepli Ejderha]

There are slight variances due to the different exam boards, dominated by OCR and EDEXCEL. I'm sure there's another one I've forgotten. The WJEC still has some market share.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Really sorry to hear that AE. Just remember it’s the society and system that are broken, not you.

Behaviour (in school) is ultimately governed by relationships and they are conditioned by too many factors to simplify but the pattern needs to be set from the top. That’s a positive HT and a strong united SLT. And, of course, as you say, the governors.

Children won’t engage with material that’s too hard for them. They won’t engage with a curriculum that’s not relevant to them.

Just try to keep going and try to keep your energy levels up so you can jump for something better if the chance arises. It sounds cynical I know, but if the leadership and governance of the place is fucked, it’ll only drag you down with it.

It’s not always like that and it’s not everywhere so don’t give up if you can hang on. But don’t blame yourself if you find another way to pay the rent.

Good luck tomorrow.

Cheers Chris, I survived. It's light now when I come home so things are looking up.