The 2015 UK General Election thread

[My Name Is Ian]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Thanks for your comments, guys. I'll return to the subject shortly, Flynnie, the primary care-giver can claim child tax credit, but only if it's me. And I won't be the primary care-giver.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

hobbes wrote:

No they don't. They know their club hates them, they know the whole thing is fucking bollocks. They're just so entrenched tribalism (and knowledge that the other lot are worse that really isn't backed up by the stuff their lot say or do) that they support them regardless.

Your tagline is wonderfully appropriate.

Have I upset you as a labour partisan or a BRC fan?

[E10 Rifle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

In theory that's fine. I don't know that it's ever happened. I would have thought that the more lefties leave Labour, the easier it is for the right of the party to drive the agenda.

The evidence is mixed: in Scotland, the emergence of the SSP (which rose and then fell, though it's still there) and the SNP's increasing appeal to a social-democratic working-class demographic has served to hollow out the Labour party into a disastrous careerist right-led rump, with a few noble exceptions. In Wales, though, Welsh Labour has - not flawlessly at all - managed to stay to the left of the UK party as a whole, and the left-orientation of Plaid must have at least something to do with this.

[DCI Harry Batt]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

It's not the responsibility of socialists to help the Labour Party though. I mean, some socialists decide to for their reasons, and fair play to them, though I don't agree. And most socialists don't, for their reasons, many of which I agree with.

If socialists organise together outside the Labour Party for the primary purpose of trying to push Labour to the left...well, have a look at the Communist Party / Morning Star.

[Lucy Waterman]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

No, I agree. If you're going to have your own party it should at least have an identity of its own rather than being purely reactive. Otherwise you end up being a Lib Dem.

Maybe UKIP is leading the spectrum to the right, but I think that's down to the response of the Tories. Cameron presides over a parliamentary party containing lots of people (well, enough people) who think that a properly hard-right Tory Party - harder than any since 1990 - would win a landslide. They've been causing more and more trouble now that UKIP have come along, and that (I think) is why Cameron is tacking to the right.

There isn't an equivalent hard-left caucus amongst the parliamentary Labour Party, so the emergence of a hard-left party (not that we don't have several of those already) wouldn't have the same effect.

[Come along, Min]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Lucy Waterman wrote:

Maybe UKIP is leading the spectrum to the right, but I think that's down to the response of the Tories. Cameron presides over a parliamentary party containing lots of people (well, enough people) who think that a properly hard-right Tory Party - harder than any since 1990 - would win a landslide. They've been causing more and more trouble now that UKIP have come along, and that (I think) is why Cameron is tacking to the right.

It's smoke and mirrors with him and his party knows it. He and his ilk wont ever be their man whilst he's pro-EU. The only reason they're sticking together is because the rift would destroy the tories as we know it. It's likely just delaying the inevitable tbh, although Cameron's mob are all hoping those with opinions which they consider old-fashioned will die of old age before it comes to that.

[Lucy Waterman]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

I think they are sticking with him because he's managed to avoid giving them a good enough opportunity to ditch him.

You talk about a split, but I think its unlikely. There isn't a strong enough ideological heft or cult of personality around Cameron, and he hasn't managed the Village Of The Damned makeover of the Party that Blair effected.

[DCI Harry Batt]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Maybe UKIP is leading the spectrum to the right, but I think that's down to the response of the Tories.

You really don't think that the reaction of Labour has anything to do with it?

[Lucy Waterman]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

I think the main two parties are more liable to react to each other than anything else. I'd see Labour as a domino in this instance, reacting to the Tories who are reacting to UKIP.

[Come along, Min]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Lucy Waterman wrote: You talk about a split, but I think its unlikely.

I didn't say when though, and Cameron's mob can be him, his kind.. that Blairy stuff, it's inheritors. The rise in UKIP will accelerate it's split, but yes they're cunning in there abilities to sell the power to their tribe. Like Blair et al were with theirs.

[DCI Harry Batt]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

I'm not sure I agree that a split is unlikely. Or at least, as unlikely as all that. Probably "unlikely" in the sense that I'd put it below 50%, I guess. But not below 25.

[Come along, Min]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

It's more likely than a Labour one for sure, there are scores of Tories who consider themselves EU-skeptic and have done for years. If there ever was a referendum, and they lost the vote, I'm not sure thry would just slink away into the night. I think they're probably far more representative of the rank and file.

[Patrick Thistle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

E10 Rifle wrote:

In theory that's fine. I don't know that it's ever happened. I would have thought that the more lefties leave Labour, the easier it is for the right of the party to drive the agenda.

The evidence is mixed: in Scotland, the emergence of the SSP (which rose and then fell, though it's still there) and the SNP's increasing appeal to a social-democratic working-class demographic has served to hollow out the Labour party into a disastrous careerist right-led rump, with a few noble exceptions. In Wales, though, Welsh Labour has - not flawlessly at all - managed to stay to the left of the UK party as a whole, and the left-orientation of Plaid must have at least something to do with this.

I'm not sure how much of it is a reaction to Plaid or just the lingering socialism born in the industrial unrest of the early 20th century. Yesterday I was at an event where the Welsh health minister was talking about the Beveridge Report, the Attlee government and the 'great Welshman of the cabinet', Aneurin Bevan. There is no flinching from that socialist legacy really. I've never heard an English Labour politician talk about that sort of stuff. They almost seem embarrassed by it.

Plaid are a funny one to work out. Nationalism and socialism are typically at odds ideologically. Many of their policies are left wing but I think that might be more of a reaction to how Welsh society is generally. No party develops policy in a vacuum. It would be very hard for a homegrown party to develop overtly right wing policies and gain any ground.

[hobbes]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote:

No they don't. They know their club hates them, they know the whole thing is fucking bollocks. They're just so entrenched tribalism (and knowledge that the other lot are worse that really isn't backed up by the stuff their lot say or do) that they support them regardless.

Your tagline is wonderfully appropriate.

Have I upset you as a labour partisan or a BRC fan?

Neither. (Although I am a BRC fan.)
I vote for who I think is best for my constituency/ward etc.at that time, as long as they're not tories.
My comment was inspired by the way you have form for some bilious and sanctimonious posts suggesting you know best and everyone else is an idiot or a fascist. You're like Rik from the Young Ones.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Jongudmund wrote:

In theory that's fine. I don't know that it's ever happened. I would have thought that the more lefties leave Labour, the easier it is for the right of the party to drive the agenda.

The evidence is mixed: in Scotland, the emergence of the SSP (which rose and then fell, though it's still there) and the SNP's increasing appeal to a social-democratic working-class demographic has served to hollow out the Labour party into a disastrous careerist right-led rump, with a few noble exceptions. In Wales, though, Welsh Labour has - not flawlessly at all - managed to stay to the left of the UK party as a whole, and the left-orientation of Plaid must have at least something to do with this.

I'm not sure how much of it is a reaction to Plaid or just the lingering socialism born in the industrial unrest of the early 20th century. Yesterday I was at an event where the Welsh health minister was talking about the Beveridge Report, the Attlee government and the 'great Welshman of the cabinet', Aneurin Bevan. There is no flinching from that socialist legacy really. I've never heard an English Labour politician talk about that sort of stuff. They almost seem embarrassed by it.

Plaid are a funny one to work out. Nationalism and socialism are typically at odds ideologically. Many of their policies are left wing but I think that might be more of a reaction to how Welsh society is generally. No party develops policy in a vacuum. It would be very hard for a homegrown party to develop overtly right wing policies and gain any ground.

I don't know. National liberation/separatist movements normally sit somewhere on the spectrum from left to radical left.

That's not exclusively true but it's important to distinguish the national liberation flavour of nationalism from the cultural supremacy flavour of nationalism.

It's particularly important for those of us who back separatist movements.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

hobbes wrote:

No they don't. They know their club hates them, they know the whole thing is fucking bollocks. They're just so entrenched tribalism (and knowledge that the other lot are worse that really isn't backed up by the stuff their lot say or do) that they support them regardless.

Your tagline is wonderfully appropriate.

Have I upset you as a labour partisan or a BRC fan?

Neither. (Although I am a BRC fan.)
I vote for who I think is best for my constituency/ward etc.at that time, as long as they're not tories.
My comment was inspired by the way you have form for some bilious and sanctimonious posts suggesting you know best and everyone else is an idiot or a fascist. You're like Rik from the Young Ones.

Lol.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote:
I don't know. National liberation/separatist movements normally sit somewhere on the spectrum from left to radical left.

That's not exclusively true but it's important to distinguish the national liberation flavour of nationalism from the cultural supremacy flavour of nationalism.

It's particularly important for those of us who back separatist movements.

Both are frequently intermingled. The "we're subjugated by inferior humanoids" narrative can be found in many examples: Flanders , 'Padania', Catalonia, Basque Country, etc.

Also, the idea of Scotland as victims of post-colonial oppression is ludicrous. Galloway's words, 'partners in crime', describe reality much better.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Pat McGatt wrote:

I don't know. National liberation/separatist movements normally sit somewhere on the spectrum from left to radical left.

That's not exclusively true but it's important to distinguish the national liberation flavour of nationalism from the cultural supremacy flavour of nationalism.

It's particularly important for those of us who back separatist movements.

Both are frequently intermingled. The "we're subjugated by inferior humanoids" narrative can be found in many examples: Flanders , 'Padania', Catalonia, Basque Country, etc.

Also, the idea of Scotland as victims of post-colonial oppression is ludicrous. Galloway's words, 'partners in crime', describe reality much better.

Agreed - I was trying to touch on that with Flanders being my case in point (Flemmish nationalism is pretty enthusiastically fash).

I think it's really important for people who back independence movements to be aware of the nationalist tropes and modes of thought and distance themselves from it.

[E10 Rifle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

People who oppose independence movements should be equally aware of them, because they're swimming in the same swamp.

Hence the ludicrous attempts by elements of the No campaign last year to deny their nationalism while pejoratively accusing the Yessers of it.

[Patrick Thistle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

My suspicion of nationalism is it can easily dip into hatred of foreigners. Or in Wales, hatred of the English, veiled in references to 'our culture / identity / language' etc. There are implications in that kind of language.

There's also a 'Welshier than thou' attitude in a lot of Welsh nationalism. Comments upthread about North and South not getting along.

Old-school socialism is internationalist in scope. 'National pride' makes very little sense to me as it's completely out of your control. You may as well say 'yeah, go blue-eyed people'.

It's also ludicrous to blame English people who are alive now for historical injustices committed centuries or decades ago. It feels like shirking responsibility for the situation. Much easier to blame the English for everything than to admit that other things need to change.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

TonTon wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are deducing, so just to be clear:

Labour have some really rotten right-wing shitbag MPs, of whom Gisela Stuart is one;

Labour's anti-SNP and anti-Greens campaigns, based on "vote x, get y" are cheap, nonsensical, laughable greenhouse-stone-throwing shit;

A Labour/Tory coalition is more likely than an SNP/Tory coalition.

That's not the argument though. It's that the party with the most votes/seats gets first go at forming a government- if Clegg can scrape 30 MPs, the Tories 290, then they're in business again. The chance of that is being seriously oversold, I agree, and is already sounding tedious.

I still think you're underestimating the "unique opportunity for Scotland" too.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Not the first time Caroline Lucas has come up with this sort of nonsense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31759733

In her address, former leader Ms Lucas will say the Green Party should join forces with the SNP in the next Parliament to maximise their influence on the next government.

"With the rise of the SNP, and with our own Green surge, we have the chance to forge a new grouping in Parliament. A progressive alliance.

Just like she hadn't read the OBR charter, does she not know about local government in Scotland being nationalized with enforced cuts?

[Tubby Isaacs]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Apparently Shapps tried to slip in Labour being "propped up by Sinn Fein" again.

Given that Labour yonks ago stopped supporting a united Ireland, I don't think Sinn Fein are going to give up their boycott.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

Nicola Sturgeon: Scrapping Trident my red line for propping up Labour
The First Minister says halting the renewal of Britain's nuclear deterrent would be her "absolute priority" if the SNP holds the balance of power

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...up-Labour.html

Nicola Sturgeon says Trident conflict would not stop SNP backing other Labour policies
Scottish first minister says party’s support for minority Labour government would not be conditional on Ed Miliband scrapping nuclear missile system

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...lection-labour

Wonder if this is a response to the "get Tory" stuff, and she's felt the need to look nicer to Labour?

I'd lose Trident tmrw.

[E10 Rifle]

The 2015 UK General Election thread

There was a Labour List (I think) piece the other day reporting that 75% of all Labour PPCs oppose trident renewal.