Vaping

[Lang Spoon]

Cigarettes taste like shit. The vape I had tasted like shit, if slightly less offensively (it was "American tobacco" refills I'd get - Marlboro lights was the general profile). But the clouds of shit I walk through when folk are puffing away these days are sickly sweet horrible. I'd imagine that candy floss shit is a lot more attractive to kids, and easier to get used to.

[Wouter D]

All this "Oh no, some kids are vaping!" seems disingenuous bollocks. Sure, they're vaping, and that's not great, but 10 years ago those exact same kids would have been smoking instead. Kids are going to break rules, and this generation are doing it in a less bad way. This is a good thing.

It's not "some kids". It's 25% of all Dutch kids between the age of 15 and 17. Absolutely nowhere near all of those would have been smoking instead.

It is entirely possible that two things are true at the same time:
- vaping is beneficial to you and to several other people who used to smoke;
- vaping is a terrible thing for public health at large.

[Moonlight Shadow]

One thing I am very dubious about is 'Vape is a gateway to smoking' when it comes to health concerns. Going from a sweet vape to a cigar cigarette with that harsh, burning taste is a big step. It reminds me of 'smoking pot leads to heroin' stuff.

Incidentally, listening to an interview about the new smoking age law in the UK, mention was made that kids today are not as well informed about tobacco risk as in previous cohorts. Going hard on vapes could lead to an even worse problem, possibly.

[Janik]

It's not "some kids". It's 25% of all Dutch kids between the age of 15 and 17. Absolutely nowhere near all of those would have been smoking instead.

It is entirely possible that two things are true at the same time:
- vaping is beneficial to you and to several other people who used to smoke;
- vaping is a terrible thing for public health at large.

Yes, that. Maybe, possibly, 30 years ago the suggestion that all the kids currently vaping would have been smoking had some potential for being true. But not 10 years ago, when smoking was a dying habit (as well as a killing one) both for actual enjoyment or as a means of rebellion.

What you have, therefore, is not a bunch of kids doing an 8/10 danger activity rather than a 10/10 danger one, but instead doing an 8/10 danger activity instead of 0/10. It's a massive problem, a very bad thing on public health grounds and that is ignoring the environmental damage it does (something the current generation of kids are generally well informed about), and the vaping industry is directly responsible for it as they have patently obviously actively worked to make it happen.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Right, as someone who has now been vaping for 2 months, 5 days, 22 hours and 29 minutes... I'm a fan

I had my first cigarette at 9, smoked regularly from 11, and was addicted by 14. For most of my adult life I've smoked 60 cigarettes a day. Then, thanks to vaping, nothing. Not one.

All this "Oh no, some kids are vaping!" seems disingenuous bollocks. Sure, they're vaping, and that's not great, but 10 years ago those exact same kids would have been smoking instead. Kids are going to break rules, and this generation are doing it in a less bad way. This is a good thing.

I disagree. Many of the kids that I know vap wouldn't be smokers.

[ursus arctos]

I can tell you from direct experience that a major Vape manufacturer agrees with you on that.

It is the driving purpose for their "flavour palette".

[pebblethefish]

I disagree. Many of the kids that I know vap wouldn't be smokers.

They wouldn't be smokers now. 10, 20 years ago they would have. It's not great, but it's better.

[Janik]

No, they wouldn't. 10, 20 years ago 25% of kids were not smoking. Nothing like that many were. Just ask the teachers, who always know the numbers indulging from cleaning up the spent butts/cartridges (kids are nowhere near sneaky enough to keep this sort of thing hidden). To use your own line this claim all those now vaping would have been smoking is disingenuous bollocks.

It's not better - it's worse.

[Patrick Thistle]

Right, as someone who has now been vaping for 2 months, 5 days, 22 hours and 29 minutes... I'm a fan

I had my first cigarette at 9, smoked regularly from 11, and was addicted by 14. For most of my adult life I've smoked 60 cigarettes a day. Then, thanks to vaping, nothing. Not one.

.

You're exactly the person vapes were made for and stories like this are why when vapes first came out public health organisations were supportive. (I worked for one at the time and the smoking cessation teams saw vapes as game changing.)

At the risk of sounding like a patronising twat, I'm genuinely impressed you've gone from 60 cigarettes a day to none and stayed off them for two months. Not many people can do that even with vapes. Where I used to work successful quitting stories were rare.

[diggedy derek]

Yeah, PT’s right, that's no mean feat.

[Janik]

What they both said, because it's very true.

Anyone suggesting a blanket ban on vapes is seriously misguided. They have a definite purpose, and used for that purpose they provide a notable benefit.

[Lang Spoon]

What got me quitting smokes was change of circumstances (moving to a non smoking gaff, meeting a non smoking herself soon after, being utterly sick of spending my evenings wasted on the green and my days chuffing tobacco) but without the vapes I'd never have been able to quit complexly two years after giving up the fags. They absolutely have a place.

it might also have helped I never (unlike many smokers it seems) enjoyed cigarettes, and only got addicted to tobacco in my early twenties via joints. Generally once I was home from work I'd only smoke a cigarette on the occasions I couldnt score weed or (really slumming it after about 2008) hash. Or when I was pissed in the pub.

that I might have smoked 12 joints in a night probably shows the extent of my hopeless tobacco dependency at the time though.

[Simon G]

You're exactly the person vapes were made for and stories like this are why when vapes first came out public health organisations were supportive. (I worked for one at the time and the smoking cessation teams saw vapes as game changing.)

At the risk of sounding like a patronising twat, I'm genuinely impressed you've gone from 60 cigarettes a day to none and stayed off them for two months. Not many people can do that even with vapes. Where I used to work successful quitting stories were rare.

I saw my uncle today for the first time in a few months. He used to be a 60 a day smoker, but started vaping a couple of years back when he discovered he had emphysema. That's no big shock, but what was a shock was him telling me that the vape he's using now doesn't even have nicotine in it. He only uses the vape out of habit and not because he's got any nicotine cravings - in fact when he has one with nicotine it actually makes him feel sick and cough a lot.

This is a guy I honestly thought would smoke himself to death.

[Nocturnal Submission]

I saw my uncle today for the first time in a few months. He used to be a 60 a day smoker, but started vaping a couple of years back when he discovered he had emphysema. That's no big shock, but what was a shock was him telling me that the vape he's using now doesn't even have nicotine in it. He only uses the vape out of habit and not because he's got any nicotine cravings - in fact when he has one with nicotine it actually makes him feel sick and cough a lot.

This is a guy I honestly thought would smoke himself to death.

Has his breathing and health generally improved?

[Simon G]

I'd say so - he's not perfect by any stretch, but certainly better than he was.

[Antepli Ejderha]

https://twitter.com/DrJamesCant/status/1710584051646505031?t=myx2xQVdDiWvQE6wZFxQng&s=19

[Antepli Ejderha]

Vapes clearly have a place in public health but disposable brightly coloured ones in multiple flavours don't and this needs to be clamped down but I fear it's too late.

I think we're probably in agreement on this.

[ursus arctos]

The US federal drug regulator has told British American Tobacco’s US subsidiary to halt sales of its menthol-flavoured Vuse Alto vape, the most popular e-cigarette in the US, following a jump in popularity of the product among underage users. The Food and Drug Administration said on Thursday that it had issued marketing denial orders for six vaping products sold by BAT-owned RJ Reynolds Vapor Company under its Vuse Alto brand. Three of the products were menthol-flavoured and three “mixed berry”, the FDA added. Evidence submitted by Reynolds to the FDA “did not demonstrate” that the products “provided an added benefit for adults who smoke cigarettes . . . relative to that of tobacco-flavoured products that is sufficient to outweigh the known risks to youth”, the agency explained.

[hobbes]

Stick them on prescription. Let wannabe non-smokers have them to help them quit and don't sell them to anyone else. Treat them like methadone.

[Hot Pepsi]

Stick them on prescription. Let wannabe non-smokers have them to help them quit and don't sell them to anyone else. Treat them like methadone.

Then they’d have to prove that it can actually help people quit. I’m not sure they can.

[Lang Spoon]

They definitely helped me. The gum, patches, all that shit did nothing, and I think you can get those on prescription.

[Lang Spoon]

And isn't it harder to quit methadone than smack? But still it's prescribed. In terms of reducing harm I'd say vaping is definitely superior, if obviously still high risk. It's better for a long term smoker than a packet of fags though.

[ursus arctos]

https://twitter.com/gothamist/status/1715371890682810692?s=12&t=xvOireV8JOIS_CpbTtDBow

[pebblethefish]

I know it's small fry in comparison to all the other problems with disposable vapes, but is there any ruling about the number of puffs they provide? In an attempt to cut down on vaping expenditure, I came up with a plan - basically it's five puffs every 15 minutes, with a bit extra on lunch breaks and the walk home. It should come to 280 puffs a day. That would mean that my vapes, which claim 600+ puffs each, would last just over two days. No, they last less than a day. Approx 220 puffs per vape. Now, my lungs are fucked, they're about the same size as a baby kitten's, so it's not like I'm taking ridiculously long drags. So they're lying about this as well.

Also, is there a reason they don't do alcohol flavoured ones? I'm assuming there's a law, otherwise I'm sure some entrepreneur would have brought out a range of lager, whisky, pink gin and a whole range of cocktail flavours.