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Human vs. professional ethics; hiring across societal and scientific boundaries.

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    Human vs. professional ethics; hiring across societal and scientific boundaries.

    Dear OTFers,

    I have an ethical conundrum for you. Please let me know what you think. I think I know what the right answer is in this situation from a professional point of view, and I think I know what the right answer is in this situation from a human point of view. I think these points of view are in direct conflict with each other. So let me know what you think.

    A while ago, my department at my university had an open position for a PhD student. In my country, PhD students are fully funded for four years of research, so successful applicants are considered employees of the university (with associated salaries and benefits) instead of students. These positions are desired, so we had >100 applicants, and we could hire precisely one person for this job; hiring zero, or more than one, was not an option. The most promising ~10 of those >100 applicants were invited to come over and present their research and interview with both the supervising professor and some of the fellow PhD students.

    One of the invited candidates, who had impressed with her written materials, came flying in from Pakistan for her presentation and interview day (on our dime, obviously; all top candidates are invited to physically come over and we will reimburse them for their troubles). From the start of the day, things didn't go excellently: she gave a reasonable overview of her MSc thesis, but in reaction to any question connecting her research to that of others, she seemed to be either unable or unwilling to connect. An inability to look over the borders of your own work, is the primary red flag by which we filter candidates at this stage.

    Just before lunch, this candidate dropped the bombshell that she was really eager to get a PhD position in the Western world, because her parents were putting enormous pressure on her: the choice was to either get a PhD position in either Europe or the USA, or get married and become a housewife in Pakistan.

    At this point, I feel that I have an ethical problem to solve. This candidate is nowhere near the best candidate for the job; from a professional point of view, I should vote to give the PhD position to a specific other candidate. If I were to go against this instinct, I would hurt two people:
    1) the Italian dude who was the best candidate for the job, and who would get the spot if I wouldn't interfere;
    2) the prospective supervisor of this PhD position, who would have to supervise a student with fewer skills than available, which may lead to this supervisor wasting more time on fixing the suboptimal work of a worse PhD student than the supervisor might have otherwise and hence setting back the supervisor's research time further than strictly necessary.

    But if I play the counterfactual, this is what I end up with:
    1) the Italian dude is skilled enough, so he'll find a great job someplace anyway; rejection would not devastate his life anywhere near as devastated as the Pakistani woman's life would be;
    2) while the supervisor may need to spend more time supervising this student, and this might unnecessarily consume some of the finite time of life of the supervisor, this is still preferable w.r.t. the waste of potential that derives from condemning this PhD candidate to a life of a housewife (there is nothing wrong with that per se, but this woman clearly could contribute to science, and hindering that would be a waste).

    I think that from a professional point of view, I should not vote to give her the job. I think that from a human point of view, I should vote to give her the job. This contradiction has been eating me alive. There are some complicating factors:
    a) I don't know whether the candidate is speaking the truth here; her parents may be more progressive than she might suggest, or the timeline for finding an alternative might be much less pressing than she might suggest;
    b) I don't know whether the candidate managed/manages to find a PhD spot elsewhere; maybe she has offers from other universities already;
    c) I find it fundamentally wrong to let my hiring decisions be influenced by the social mores of a faraway society such as rural Pakistan. I do appreciate that in a globalized society, I cannot assume my decisions to be independent of such mores, but still this feels wrong. I have no voting rights in Pakistan, so why would I be responsible for their society?
    d) it feels game-theoretically wrong that she gave out this information. For all I know, the Italian dude may come from a situation that leads him to urgently seek a PhD position in another country too, but he didn't put this burden on me. So rewarding volunteering this information seems fundamentally unfair in the hiring process.

    I strongly feel that, as a fellow human being, I failed this person. At the same time, I strongly feel that, as a coworker, I voted the right way to make our collective workfloor better. We ended up not offering this Pakistani lady a job. Still, she sometimes haunts my dreams.

    Am I the asshole?
    Last edited by Wouter D; 22-12-2021, 01:47.

    #2
    No, you aren't the asshole.

    You did the right thing.

    For yourself, the group, the Italian guy and (I think) even the Pakistani woman.

    Comment


      #3
      I would say that the fact that you worry about this means that you're not the asshole.
      Nothing immediately to add on the actual question, though.

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        #4
        I think you did the right thing, but might be better also giving the Pakistani candidate constructive feedback so she has a better chance of getting a gig with a subsequent application

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          #5
          If the Pakistani woman has already got this far then I feel that her parents are probably not as oppressive as she makes out. If they thought marriage was such a good option then I would have thought they would have pulled her out of education long ago. Also I think it was a wrong that she would use this kind of manipulation in the interview.
          I would agree with SB above that some constructive feedback would be a good thing to do, however.

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            #6
            And even now I'm questioning my own opinion and whether I am applying my own western view of how Pakistani society works. I can see how this might be getting under your skin.

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              #7
              Your first obligation is to the institution that placed its trust in you to make the right decisions on its behalf. You've done that. And you did this with empathy. You are on solid ethical ground. You might have been on shiftier ethical grounds had you let personal projection interfere with your professional mandate.

              If the woman made it onto the shortlist of the 10% candidates, then she can't be entirely unpromising. Another university might decide in her favour. If she haunts your darkness, is there a way you could connect her with other possible institutions? Is there a way you could speak to her in confidence, and give feedback on where her presentation was lacking?
              Last edited by G-Man; 22-12-2021, 08:02.

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                #8
                Wouter D that's a horrible position to be in. Choosing one person is bad enough without the added stress of all that. Regardless of your choice you would probably have felt awful.

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                  #9
                  I can only echo what others have said, you've done the right thing and giving constructive feedback to help the other candidate would help her more than giving her a position where she wasn't up to the role.

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                    #10
                    I think the only ethical problem here is that the University allow (expects?) candidates to fly half way around the world to apply for a job when they only have a 1/10 chance of success. Seems odd in an age of Covid/travel issues and a waste of time and resources. Surely this could all have been done via Teams (for all candidates to ensure a level playing field, even those who live locally)?

                    Caveat - not sure from your post how recently all this happened

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks for sharing your opinions, all. Appreciated.

                      We did give her quite some constructive feedback, and I hope she took it to heart.

                      colchestersid, your concern is a valid one, but indeed this story played out before Covid. Nowadays, we would interview via digital means. Before the pandemic, and in a hypothetical future in which the pandemic disappears, the university would of course reimburse all invited candidates for their travel costs; we find that candidates can be scrutinized much more precisely by seeing them interact on the spot with a variety of people, and the candidates get the chance to taste the culture shock and discreetly ask other PhD students in the group how their experience is with the prospective supervisor. An in-person visit gives both sides of the interview substantially more information.

                      Sean of the Shed, getting under your skin is exactly the right phrase. I know, objectively, from the professional point of view, I made the right choice. Yet I cannot shake the feeling that humanly, another choice might have been prudent. This disconnect is so weird.

                      When I get back to work after the Christmas/New Year's break, I should try to find whether she found a PhD position elsewhere. If so, that'd put my mind more at ease.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        There is a risk to that course though, Wouter. What if she was telling the truth, you were genuinely her last chance, and she is no longer able to be a scientist? In fact, even finding she has got a position elsewhere is a bit undermining as it then questions what she told you - at a minimum she would have been misrepresenting (not necessarily deliberately but even so) it being her last chance.

                        In the circumstances I would rather preserve ignorance that allows me to imagine it all worked out well in the end. I would also fall back on knowing the right thing was done ethically (which is the right thing humanly as well) and the Uni bears no responsibility for the personal circumstances of people in other regions of the world.

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                          #13
                          Yeah, I agree with Janik. I would just leave it there, if I were you.

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                            #14
                            Would echo Janik and Jimski. Maybe best to leave it.

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                              #15
                              If she's on LinkedIn perhaps get a friend to have a look for you? At least then your curiosity is satisfied.

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                                #16
                                Hire the most qualified candidate.

                                If 100 people are applying for a job then it's not a given that the Italian will walk into a job somewhere else. And if he doesn't get hired despite having the best CV then he will have been well and truly fucked over.

                                ​​​​​​Is it the Netherlands? I'm shocked that they are considering hiring an Italian on the basis of him having the best CV. Isn't there a Dutch local hero available?
                                ​​​​​
                                Last edited by anton pulisov; 26-12-2021, 17:44.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                  Is it the Netherlands? I'm shocked that they are considering hiring an Italian on the basis of him having the best CV. Isn't there a Dutch local hero available?
                                  You've alluded to this sort of thing on this forum quite a lot, but your experience simply does not match mine. In fact, my cluster has 16 faculty members, and I am the token Dutchman. It's the United Nations over here.
                                  Last edited by Wouter D; 27-12-2021, 16:35. Reason: cluster, not department. The department is quite a lot bigger

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                    Hire the most qualified candidate.

                                    If 100 people are applying for a job then it's not a given that the Italian will walk into a job somewhere else. And if he doesn't get hired despite having the best CV then he will have been well and truly fucked over.
                                    Which is why there isn't a difference between professional and human ethics here. What minorities ask for is to be given equal access and treatment, not preferential access and treatment to mitigate their circumstances. As that appears to have been applied, the correct hire was made from all moral and ethical standpoints.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      In the opening weeks of covid, a few of our clients pulled back their budgets in a big way. We had to let one writer go, and it was clear - based on a number of factors - which two I had to choose between.

                                      Now, it's very easy to say "when all else is equal, choose the woman...or the racialized person...or the whatever...over the white male". But all else is never equal if you want the white male.

                                      Anyway, my choice was between a white male, who I've known forever and hired twice, and an Indian woman I'd only recently hired. I let him go. My reasoning wasn't professional. I knew he was married to a doctor and would pick up another job pretty quickly and he'd be fine. I also considered that she had a dramatically smaller professional network, two small kids, etc. And, of course, the optics of the situation. Nobody would know who the choice was between, or if there was a choice at all, but...

                                      Anyway, two years on and I'm still okay with my decision, but I do still think about the criteria I applied. I know I did it for the right reasons, and I understand how Wouter feels. You tell yourself that putting your thumb on the scale for the right reasons is okay, but I still think I'd have felt better hiring for 'noble' reasons than firing for them.

                                      So, there it is.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        The trouble with the idea of "equal access and treatment" is that has to be applied from birth to be "truly equal", if indeed such a concept can even exist. So, for example, if one candidate was disadvantaged by their background, how should that be factored in? I don't have the answers, and I don't necessarily think there are "right" answers here. So I can understand and sympathise with the logic both in the OP and in the post just above.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Wouter D View Post

                                          You've alluded to this sort of thing on this forum quite a lot, but your experience simply does not match mine. In fact, my cluster has 16 faculty members, and I am the token Dutchman. It's the United Nations over here.
                                          I guess it is just the selfish pointy shoed fuckers I had to work with. Had to emigrate twice.

                                          But there are loads of places in NL chock a block with local crown princes and princesses. You need not look far. I'd go so far as to say your place is the happy exception.
                                          Last edited by anton pulisov; 27-12-2021, 22:29.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                            Which is why there isn't a difference between professional and human ethics here. What minorities ask for is to be given equal access and treatment, not preferential access and treatment to mitigate their circumstances. As that appears to have been applied, the correct hire was made from all moral and ethical standpoints.
                                            Yes. Minorities aren't looking for favours from the powerful, they just want the powerful to stop giving themselves favours.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                              My reasoning wasn't professional. I knew he was married to a doctor and would pick up another job pretty quickly and he'd be fine. I also considered that she had a dramatically smaller professional network, two small kids, etc.

                                              Anyway, two years on and I'm still okay with my decision, but I do still think about the criteria I applied. I know I did it for the right reasons, and I understand how Wouter feels. You tell yourself that putting your thumb on the scale for the right reasons is okay, but I still think I'd have felt better hiring for 'noble' reasons than firing for them.

                                              So, there it is.
                                              This is a deeply decent approach. It reminds me of two separate items I ran across recently: first, Derek Parfit's philosophy paper "Equality or Priority" which focuses on Nozickian utility (summarized here) that seems to be very relevant to this example on the basis of egalitarian reasoning: https://www.philosophy.rutgers.edu/j...iority2000.pdf

                                              Second, the the Malcolm in the Middle episode (scene here) where the mother had to choose between a slight disadvantage for the accomplished child, or a significant advantage for the failing child.

                                              My own professional advancement (as a subpar middle manager in a sinister techbro Keiretsu) has been repeatedly hampered by making choices on the wrong side of maximizing utility. Wouter, I do expect you made a very reasoned and moral choice, but it's a moral maze in professional circumstances that seems inherently impossible to escape.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Tennis Borussia View Post
                                                This is a deeply decent approach. It reminds me of two separate items I ran across recently: first, Derek Parfit's philosophy paper "Equality or Priority" which focuses on Nozickian utility (summarized here) that seems to be very relevant to this example on the basis of egalitarian reasoning: https://www.philosophy.rutgers.edu/j...iority2000.pdf

                                                Second, the the Malcolm in the Middle episode (scene here) where the mother had to choose between a slight disadvantage for the accomplished child, or a significant advantage for the failing child.

                                                My own professional advancement (as a subpar middle manager in a sinister techbro Keiretsu) has been repeatedly hampered by making choices on the wrong side of maximizing utility. Wouter, I do expect you made a very reasoned and moral choice, but it's a moral maze in professional circumstances that seems inherently impossible to escape.
                                                Excellent, that goes straight on the 2022 reading list. Thank you!

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Give her the job, you tight bastard!

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