Visca Catalunya?

[DCI Harry Batt]

It's astonishing that people manage to blame Puigdemont for the behaviour of the Spanish state.

[Jorge Porbillas]

So, since last week, Puigdemont's actions have stripped Catalonia of the autonomy it had and they will spend the next 5 years grovelling to regain the autonomy they once had. To top it all off, he flees the country whilst all his senior colleagues are imprisoned. What is "complete and utter twat" in Catalan?

Yeah, I mean forcing a democratically elected leader to flee to a third country, issuing an European arrest warrant for said leader, jailing a further eight democratically elected ministers and at the same time removing the democratic rights of an elected parliament isn't "twattish" in any way, right?

[steveeeeeeeee]

He fled of his own accord. He was elected democratically yet didn't follow the rules of democracy himself. He's a fool who has damaged any possibility of Catalonia seeing independence in his own lifetime.

There is no good guy, bad guy in this scenario, just right wing nationalist bad guy and foolish posturing regionalist bad guy. I'm over the moon the the only consequences of this horrible situation are politicians being arrested rather than innocent people being harmed.

[DCI Harry Batt]

The thousand or so injured by Franco's Guardia Civil for trying to vote not being "innocent", I guess.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Actually, fked of his own accord, i mean there was no threat of arrest when he went to Belgium. The fact he fled and stayed there probably led to the arrest of his colleagues.

Yeah, in a ideal world states would not exist and laws would not be required to define borders. But for now, they don't and to play with people's lives to create more borders deserves punishment from someone.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Ideally, Rajoy will get his comeuppance eventually as a result of that. But to defend puigdemont just because Rajoy also makes bad decisions does not compute.

[Nefertiti2]

Actually, fked of his own accord, i mean there was no threat of arrest when he went to Belgium. The fact he fled and stayed there probably led to the arrest of his colleagues.

Are you really saying Puigemont is responsible for the actions of the Spanish government? He didn't need increased autonomy since he was already in power in Madrid?

[DCI Harry Batt]

Ideally, Rajoy will get his comeuppance eventually as a result of that. But to defend puigdemont just because Rajoy also makes bad decisions does not compute.

So have innocent people been harmed, or not?

I agree, that's not the only reason for defending Catalonian independence.

[anton pulisov]

Actually, fked of his own accord, i mean there was no threat of arrest when he went to Belgium.

The fact that they have put out an arrest warrant for him would suggest that there was...

[Diable Rouge]

Actually, fked of his own accord, i mean there was no threat of arrest when he went to Belgium. The fact he fled and stayed there probably led to the arrest of his colleagues.

Yeah, in a ideal world states would not exist and laws would not be required to define borders. But for now, they don't and to play with people's lives to create more borders deserves punishment from someone.

The two Jordis would suggest otherwise.

[steveeeeeeeee]

The fact that they have put out an arrest warrant for him would suggest that there was...

Issued after he had travelled to Belgium.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Are you really saying Puigemont is responsible for the actions of the Spanish government? He didn't need increased autonomy since he was already in power in Madrid?

This again? Of course he's not responsible for the actions of the Spanish government. Puigdemont is responsible for playing with the safety and security of Catalans by dragging them dangerously close to a an armed conflict. When he realises his people don't want this in the numbers he anticipated, that those human barriers around the Catalan Assembly are unlikely, he buggers off to Belgium. A coward and a hypocrite, like most flame-fanners of regionalism.

[Nefertiti2]

Puigdemont has had nothing to do with arms or conflict. He's called for mediation. The only people whose strategy may involve the use of arms are the Spanish Government. If there's armed conflict the responsibility lies with those who are ready to use the arms, not the people who they use them on.

I don't see how you can blame Puigdemont for the Spanish Government's apparent readiness to use arms on what it still considers are its own citizens.

[Jorge Porbillas]

This again? Of course he's not responsible for the actions of the Spanish government. Puigdemont is responsible for playing with the safety and security of Catalans by dragging them dangerously close to a an armed conflict. When he realises his people don't want this in the numbers he anticipated, that those human barriers around the Catalan Assembly are unlikely, he buggers off to Belgium. A coward and a hypocrite, like most flame-fanners of regionalism.

The only person responsible for dragging Catalonia "close to an armed conflict" is the person who sent in the Guardia Civil to beat up peacful protestors with gay abandon.

[Nefertiti2]

Issued after he had travelled to Belgium.

Are you saying that if Puigdemont hadn't gone to Belgium the Spanish Government (which has happily imprisoned 8 more junior Catalan politicians) wouldn't have imprisoned him.

[Diable Rouge]

35,000 protesting in Bilbao today:

http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/pol...685361458.html

And interestingly, without any official PNV attendance.

[anton pulisov]

Issued after he had travelled to Belgium.

What does it matter? I don't understand the logic.

[ursus arctos]

Puigdemont has turned himself in to the Belgian authorities

[Duncan Gardner]

A coward and a hypocrite, like most flame-fanners of regionalism

Stevetc. with an early pitch to mediate the latest Ulster Crisis...

[E10 Rifle]

So…

So have innocent people been harmed, or not?

[steveeeeeeeee]

My definition of harm is losing jobs, land, housing and lives, all things Catalans have in relative abundance compared to much of Spain. Yet all things Puigdemont was willing to play with to satisfy his greed and ego. If your definition of harm is being baton charged by police then tell me a police force, national or local, in Iberia that we shouldn't have beef with?

[E10 Rifle]

I'm happy to have beef with all of them to be honest. So, again, baton-charging people in polling stations: right or wrong?

[steveeeeeeeee]

I'm happy to have beef with all of them to be honest. So, again, baton-charging people in polling stations: right or wrong?

Where on any part of this thread am I condoning physical assault of innocent people? Read what I am saying. Puigdemont is an idiot who deserves everything he gets. The Catalan people deserve better, but he's f*cked it up for them now and for years to come. Rajoy is also a bad man, but any Catalan leader with any sense would work towards removal of Rajoy rather than poking him with a stick.

[DCI Harry Batt]

I think it's an odd definition of harm that excludes getting beaten and kicked by armed thugs, requiring hospital treatment. But each to his own.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Equally, i think its an odd definition of harm that focuses only on police brutality and does not also include loss of economic prosperity, displacement and if pushed to its absolute limits, the loss of human life. But each to their own.