Thank You Spain

[Nefertiti2]

Thank You Spain

Blow my whistle, big boy!

[matt j]

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I like the idea of Spain as a Roomba. Brilliant. Does that make Holland the cat?

[Purves Grundy]

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Nefertiti2 wrote:

PG is absolutely right

Good point.

[Er Liquidatore]

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The Italians and Spanish want two players sent off every single game. That's no inidcator of anything.

[N est à?]

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Yeah. A much better indicator is what the dirty bastards were getting away with on the pitch.

[Ray de Galles]

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Er Liquidatore wrote:

Brazil 1970, Holland 74, Germany during this World Cup, Chelsea around the late 90s, Drogba stamping all over Arsenal's spineless backline, that sort of thing.

Something with a bit of style, elàn, swagger and panache. A bit of chaos. Spain are very, very predictable. Very good, obviously, with great players, but too machine like, and not a cool machine either, like a Transformer, or a something watonly destructive; but more like that robot vacuum cleaner. Just not that exciting at all.

Wild applause, feet stomping on floor, lighter held up in the air, shouts of "More,more,more" and "Do 'Sweet Home Alabama' again.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

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My elderly neighbour is rather dull and frankly not very exciting. That doesn't make her a "presumptuous little snidey cuntwipe" unless you follow the recent WSC fashion of talking like a spoiled 12 year old with Tourette's syndrome. Dude, look at that cunt, he's wearing the wrong model of Adidas Samba, the fucking twat.

I don't recall a single soundbite from the manager or the players revealing anything but humility; they only used the system they thought suited them best, and you know what? It worked. So I think you're projecting too much. This is basically just a hissy fit because your favourite team didn't win. Maybe you can get FIFA to replay the World Cup again and again until the right team wins it.

[Sixmartletsandaseagull]

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style, elàn, swagger and panache.

Spain's got them covered for me. Excellent team.

[ad hoc]

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Seems to me the vast majority of people wanting Spain to win on here doesn't come from some kind of TikiTaka masturbation, but rather feeling that Holland were utterly dirty and undeserving.

Almost like the myth that "everybody is raving about Brazil even though they're not the Brazil of 1970" (where everybody = Clive Tyldesley, apparently) or "everyone thinks England are one of the best teams in the world" (where everyone = possibly a journalist in the Sun or something)

[Taylor]

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Bryañero wrote:

It was almost as though Robben was stranded on an island. Ahem.

All tournament I've been trying to think up a joke about Robben's name being somewhat unfortunate considering the location of this World Cup. It's bloody hard isn't it? The closest I got was "Robben comes to South Africa to prove that no man is an island", but that's rubbish.

El Rinoceronte Mentaverde wrote:

Time for Webb to switch to his true calling as a male model in gay lifestyle magazines.

He's a copper by trade, isn't he, Howard Webb? Makes him seem less dashing, I have to say.

If instead of shaving his head he let it grow at the sides and Brylcreemed it back, he'd look a lot like George Martin. Every time he has a quiet word with one of the more fiery participants, I imagine he's saying "Everyone thinks Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds stands for LSD, but in fact John's son Julian brought home a painting from school..."

As for Spain, I love 'em. With reservations, but you know - Torres was a huge part of their gameplan, and without him they were never going to be banging in the goals in the knockout stages, because his absence meant altering the shape.

Their dilemma was obviously this: even with a misfiring Torres on the pitch they looked more dangerous, largely because Villa's proved in this tournament that he's most deadly cutting in from the left (Barcelona will be pleased at this development, considering that's where they'll be playing him). You know what I mean, with two strikers on the pitch, their 4-2-3-1 was more like a lopsided 4-2-2-2, with Villa playing like the left winger in a front 3 (and Ramos charging forward to double as the right winger, balancing things out in the attack). Torres didn't have to do much; just by standing there he was allowing Spain to play the most attacking style they could, considering the need to use two holding midfielders this time.

But obviously, come the sharp end of the tournament, when you're a team that thrives on possession and can be vulnerable to counters, you can't afford to play an injured centre forward who's going to screw up almost every time he gets the ball, in order to enable a more attacking shape. VDB said before the tournament that most of the players were only half-fit anyway (hence the need to use two holding players) - persevering with that formation, with a crocked Torres, was a disaster waiting to happen. It made perfect sense to drop Torres, put Villa up there to drag defenders around, bring in someone like Pedro who'll happily track back to cover for Ramos, then just be very patient and keeeeeep the ball.

But it was only lack of fitness, specifically Torres', that stopped Spain playing like they did in Euro 2008. I mean what would anyone else have done, if they were the coach? The only other non-suicidal option was to start every game with Llorente and Navas, and play a quasi-Premiership style, with lots of speedy wingplay and crosses. Wasn't going to happen. I can see how defensive tiki-taka (as opposed to the more attacking, Barcelona-with-Eto'o variant they used in 2008) might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I can think of plenty less deserving ways to win a World Cup.

I'd have got as much pleasure from Germany winning it, but no one else.

[Moonlight Shadow]

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Spain has nothing to envy to Italy in term of endemic diving, cynical fouling although far more to offer in endless self-agrandising about their so-called beautiful football.

[dalliance]

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I get riled that many other people get so riled about players waving imaginary yellow cards at referees to try and get opponents booked. It annoys people much more than the often horrible tackles that preclude such an incident which is messed up priorities.

I once again thought the refereeing was too lenient throughout the tournament. I hate how more often than not players get away with murder in the opening 10 minutes because refs are too scared to lay down their mark early. I hate how refs are too scared to book players for diving. I also hate how Webb - who I thought had a decent if lenient game - is taking a lot of stick as if he is to blame for the 13 bookings and one sending off last night, just as was the case with the ref in that Portugal v Holland game 4 years ago.

If I was playing for Uruguay in the third placed game and I saw the ref give Dennis Aogo merely a yellow card for that hideous leg breaking tackle on Perez, I wouldn't trust him to penalise dirty opponents suitably in other incidents when he failed so miserably in that one. Ditto De Jong on Alonso last night.

Why would you NOT want to make sure you were pointing out to the ref what his job is in these circumstances.

[dalliance]

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But it was only lack of fitness, specifically Torres', that stopped Spain playing like they did in Euro 2008.

You know I'm going to disagree with you there Taylor. I thought when they were playing 442 they lacked fluency and their ball retention suffered somewhat before the ball got anywhere near Torres. All their opponents swamped the midfield and 5 against 4, even when that 4 were as good as the Spanish was often enough to blunt them and frustrate them. Remember in the opening games Iniesta was less than fit too and took a few games to get into his stride.

If the Spanish are having their extended possession periods broken up then you are taking away their very essence and they look a lot less comfortable. By moving to 5 in midfield they ensured they were going to be playing every game on their terms, no other nation's midfield could match them especially in what would be tight and crowded areas with 10 players jostling for position.

The sacrifice was up front of course but they took the chance that when you have Villa then you always have goals in you at some stage. Each game followed the same pattern too, opponents chase and harried and surrendered possession then got tired and were eventually picked off by a fresher side.

A final point on club v country. If I was someone associated with Liverpool just now I would be mightily angry with Spain. Torres really should not have been playing in this World Cup, he never looked like he was remotely ready to play and his weakened state I am sure played a part in his hamstring injury.

He could be out for 6 weeks meaning Liverpool can't sell him or play him. Ridiculous. Slightly similar cases with Rooney and Drogba too.

[G-Man]

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He's a copper by trade, isn't he, Howard Webb? Makes him seem less dashing, I have to say.

I don't know; give him a leather police cap and a swinging truncheon, and I can imagine him in some dashing poses.

[Sam]

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G.Man wrote:

He's a copper by trade, isn't he, Howard Webb? Makes him seem less dashing, I have to say.

I don't know; give him a leather police cap and a swinging truncheon, and I can imagine him in some dashing poses.

He'd certainly be the last cop I'd want to run into a darkened alley.

It's just a shame FIFA aren't happy with the idea of allowing their referees to do proper jobs as is required - what yesterday's game needed was a discipline daddy.

[Er Liquidatore]

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I don't recall a single soundbite from the manager or the players revealing anything but humility; they only used the system they thought suited them best, and you know what? It worked. So I think you're projecting too much. This is basically just a hissy fit because your favourite team didn't win. Maybe you can get FIFA to replay the World Cup again and again until the right team wins it.

I gave you a link. I couldn't give two shits about Holland, really, I just find Spain utterly objectionable.

[Defensive minded]

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I agree that the Netherlands should have been reduced to 10 men fairly early in the game.

On the other hand, Iniesta's play-acting in the second half has to be mentioned too. He kicked his own heel twice (once in the penalty area) to go down. These things are practiced by players and very difficult to detect by the ref.

[Bored Of Education]

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The last 5 paragraphs (including the last about Germany) of Taylor's post and dalliance's are both excellent summaries of Spain's tactics even if they are somewhat contradictory. I was trying to formulate something along the line of Taylor;s but failed miserably

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

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I get riled that many other people get so riled about players waving imaginary yellow cards at referees to try and get opponents booked. It annoys people much more than the often horrible tackles that preclude such an incident which is messed up priorities.

Because it's an automatic yellow card regardless of the circumstance and It's never punished.

Similarly, the player doing it is usually a ghastly little shit like deco who is every bit as likely to leave the studs in on an opponent as he is to writhe around on the floor feigning injury. It's about getting your opponent more severely punished for doing something very similar to what you are doing yourself. It's hypocrisy and it's famous players trying to use their fame to sway a referee not into letting them get away with something, but tilting the match in their favour.

another aspect of it is that it is used by defenders who are compounding an outrageous act of cheating. For instance, when sergio Ramos ran straight over ozil when he was through on goal, he jumped straight up and demanded that ozil be booked. He then went straight down the other end and committed an outrageous dive himself.

Mark van bommel is usually demanding that other players get booked. So is that little shit sneijder. Indeed the world cup final was one of the few occasions when players could legitimately have asked the ref "When are you going to book someone". But it's the exception to the rule.

[Taylor]

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dalliance wrote:

You know I'm going to disagree with you there Taylor. I thought when they were playing 442 they lacked fluency and their ball retention suffered somewhat before the ball got anywhere near Torres. All their opponents swamped the midfield and 5 against 4, even when that 4 were as good as the Spanish was often enough to blunt them and frustrate them.

But their 4-4-2 wasn't really 4-4-2, was it? Villa was playing as a winger would in a 4-5-1 when defending / 4-3-3 when attacking set-up.

I thought they looked fine in that formation, apart from Torres' finishing, but if there was a problem with ball retention (relatively speaking) it might have had something to do with playing Villa out wide with two holding players, which left Spain relatively light in the central area between the centre-circle and the edge of the box, which is where they usually play most of their football. Putting Iniesta out left with a brief to come inside allowed Xavi to play a few yards deeper where he likes it, with Villa dropping deep from centre forward, and meant that area filled up again, so Spain looked a bit more comfortable tapping it around once those changes were made. But it made them far less attacking, of course, especially when they played Fabregas rather than Pedro in the (nominal) right midfield spot, and we got the round-and-round stuff which seemed to bore so many people (not me).

VDB put the two holding midfielders thing down to lack of fitness across the squad, but there's also a personnel issue there, isn't there? Alonso plays best alongside an out and out destroyer (I can't recall him ever starting a match without one next to him, though he probably has at some point), and he was undroppable, really, while Busquets isn't quite reliable enough to use as the defensive player in a 4-1-4-1 - not at World Cup level, anyway.

[anton pulisov]

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Poll on the largest Dutch news website:

Oranje lost the World Cup final due to:
Spain's strong performance - 5,643 votes
Our own weak performance - 10,469 votes
Referee Howard Webb - 11,846 votes

[ad hoc]

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I think they've mixed up "due to" with "in spite of" there. It's a common error.

[torres]

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My money was on the Dutch before the tournament and I was happy not to collect on this one.

[Moonlight Shadow]

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Have the Dutch media splashed out Webb's details all over the place for fans to threaten him by phone, mail, email, etc ?