Spain v Germany

[anton pulisov]

Spain v Germany

Toldo and Buffon were both widely regarded as very good goalkeepers at the time, and had nailed down starting positions at Fiorientina and Parma. Unfortunately the conservative Cesare Maldini was unwilling to play a young keeper in goal. Oliver Kahn had been Bayern's starting goalkeeper for four years already. Jens Lehmann had kept goal for Schalke for 10 years. Edwin van der Sar had appeared in the the Champions League finals of 1995 and 1996 - if that's not gaining a reputation then I don't know what is. He achieved much more than Stekelenburg did at the same age.

and the fact that some of these rather good goalkeepers didn't play in 1998 would only lend creedence to the argument that the overal quality of goalkeeping in 1998 was somewhat better.

No, David Seaman was not a world beater but he was clearly better than Rob Green or David James.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain v Germany

David seaman was a world beater in 1998. He didn't banjax himself for another two years. however goalies at this world cup have been undermined though by the stupid ball, that stops behaving properly at speeds above 44 mph, and starts to move rather randomly. hence the muller goal last night.

It's difficult to judge how good goalkeepers are across leagues because of different levels of exposure. Personally I have a strong suspicion that buffon is perhaps the most overrated goalkeeper in europe at the moment because of our limited exposure to him.

I don't doubt that he is a fine goalkeeper, but our judgement of him is only partial. The most sucessful part of his career has no value in rating him because he was playing for a team that was systematically fixing games and they'd get slaughtered by the first decent team they'd play in europe. but the big thing is that we are never exposed to the goals he concedes, whereas we'll have seen any mistake a premiership goalie makes a thousand times. In essence we're more likely to be fiercely critical of goalkeepers we see.

For instance we'd all have a much higher opinion of fabien barthez and see him only as a world cup winner and a european champion, if he had made those terrible mistakes he made against arsenal in the 2001-2 season for marseilles, because we wouldn't have seen the mistakes a thousand times.

Similarly petr cech's reputation took a bit of a battering this season for a run of games where he didn't play very well. But he keeps a lot of clean sheets, concedes very few goals, but we allow a run of form to colour our views of him, but wouldn't necessarily see someone like buffon in that detail.

I suppose in short goalkeepers are now largely judged by their mistakes, and current keepers are always going to look bad, because we concentrate on their mistakes, because we've forgotten the ones goalies of the past made, and we don't see many of the mistakes that other goalies make to the same degree.

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

I agree that we tend to remember mistakes from keepers we see regularly, whereas we only see the highlight reel from other leagues (though that effect is less dramatic with keepers than strikers as we get to see all the goals they let in), but Buffon is very highly rated in Italy too.

And the best efforts of Moggi couldn't magically make Buffon save shots that he'd otherwise have let in.

Marchetti conceding 5 goals from 6 shots on target in the tournament probably hasn't hurt Buffon's rep either, though I don't think he did all that much wrong.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

Spain v Germany

Bryañero wrote:

I didn't say Lehmann was superior to Casillas and I didn't even mention Zubizarreta, you imagined that one.

dalliance did.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain v Germany

And the best efforts of Moggi couldn't magically make Buffon save shots that he'd otherwise have let in.

But it would markedly reduce the number of shots he'd have to face, and the number of penalties.

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

Yes, but a keeper's reputation is made as much from the number of shots he has to save as the number of clean sheets he keeps.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Spain v Germany

hmm, I get the impression that buffon is more in the petr cech/van der sar mould (stands around for most of the 90 minutes but makes the three saves he has to make) than the shay given/iker casillas school of one man defending.

That moggi stuff is not his fault but it seriously reduced the level of challenge he faced.

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

Well, OK, but then you'd expect he'd have been suddenly shown up when the scandal was exposed and that advantage was reduced - particularly as Juventus have had a poor defence ever since. That he hasn't been suggests he is very good indeed.

He also kept Toldo out of the Italy side, and Toldo looked exceptionally good in the same period without those advantages.

[David Agnew]

Spain v Germany

Bryañero wrote:

Toldo and Buffon were both widely regarded as very good goalkeepers at the time, and had nailed down starting positions at Fiorientina and Parma. Unfortunately the conservative Cesare Maldini was unwilling to play a young keeper in goal.

Toldo was 27! Buffon was considered a potential great, but you cannot say that just because a 20 year old who became great was a nation's third choice proves that the quality of the keeping is better than today, because you have Daniel Agyei building a similar reputation through the Ghana World U20 Championship team.

Oliver Kahn had been Bayern's starting goalkeeper for four years already.

Three of which were transitional.

Jens Lehmann had kept goal for Schalke for 10 years.

And Schalke were mid-table Bundesliga side at best in those ten years, has spent almost half that time in the second division, and for many years Lehmann was seen as a joke (being replaced at half time because of poor performance, and the like).

Edwin van der Sar had appeared in the the Champions League finals of 1995 and 1996 - if that's not gaining a reputation then I don't know what is. He achieved much more than Stekelenburg did at the same age.

Rightly or wrongly, van der Sar wasn't seen as one of the stars of the team, and while he may have had a great reputation domestically, he was still second choice to Ed de Goey until 1996, and no-one will be calling de Goey an all time great.

and the fact that some of these rather good goalkeepers didn't play in 1998 would only lend creedence to the argument that the overal quality of goalkeeping in 1998 was somewhat better.

No, it suggests that some of the keepers were yet to peak, some of them may have had their best to come, and in some respects the quality of goalkeepers may have been better (Andreas Kopke better than an at his peak Oliver Kahn, really?), but again, it's very, very easy (lazy even) to judge the keepers of 1998 based on their entire careers against those of this World Cup, some of which you or I wouldn't have heard of five weeks ago.

As for actual great performances in 1998 (which is what the comparison should be), I recall Chilavert v Spain, but that's about it. And that was certainly not on the level of Enyema v Argentina in the opening game of this tournament.

And even then, the keepers of 1998 had a lot more shots on target to deal with, through fewer players ballooning the ball over the bar, and blaming the ball afterwards. You can't save something that's already way off target.

[Ek weet nie]

Spain v Germany

Technicky Vizionar wrote:

In the 1980s everyone wanted to be Zico, Platini, Laudrup, Rush, Dalglish, Barnes and of course Maradona. No-one wanted to be Eric Gerets, Antonio Carbrini or Oscar Ruggeri. Except maybe dalliance, but then I knew a kid who wanted to be Jean-Marie Pfaff.

I wanted to be this guy when I was growing up:

[anton pulisov]

Spain v Germany

Technicky Vizionar wrote:

Edwin van der Sar had appeared in the the Champions League finals of 1995 and 1996 - if that's not gaining a reputation then I don't know what is. He achieved much more than Stekelenburg did at the same age.

Rightly or wrongly, van der Sar wasn't seen as one of the stars of the team, and while he may have had a great reputation domestically, he was still second choice to Ed de Goey until 1996, and no-one will be calling de Goey an all time great.

You are rewriting history.

Van der Sar's first full season in goal for Ajax was 93-94, so they were hardly going to risk him at USA '94. But he took over the reigns before Euro '96 and had displaced De Goeij from the side.

By France '98 he had appeared in two consecutive Champions League finals and three consecutive Champions Leauge semi-finals. Never once did he lose his place at Ajax. He was widely regarded as one of the best goalkeepers in Europe.

Maarten Stekelenburg is now exactly the same age as Van der Sar was at France '98. Stekelenburg has lost his place in the Ajax team on a number of occasions, notably to Bogdan Lobont and, as recently as 12 months ago, Kenneth Vermeer. He has performed nowhere near to the level that Edwin van der Sar did by age 28. In his 18 year career at the highest level, Edwin van der Sar has only been dropped once, and even then he jumped before he was pushed, signing for Fulham in the same summer that Juve paid 20 million for one Gigi Buffon.

It's common knowledge in the Netherlands that Van der Sar would still be between the sticks for the Dutch if he hadn't retired from international football. Stekelenburg never managed to displace him.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Spain v Germany

Renaardvark wrote:

Sorry to bring down the level of discussion, but this video of the Spanish queen visiting the team's locker room after the match features a hilarious Carles Puyol entrance (around 1:15).

Spanish royals are a lot less stiff than British, aren't they?

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

Bryan, I don't think anyone disputes that Van der Sar is/was a better keeper than Stekelenburg is now, and probably ever will be. But that doesn't detract from TV's argument that you can't compare definitively players from one generation where we've seen their whole career and players who still have much of their career ahead of them. Your post about how good a career Van der Sar has had is entirely correct, but by 1998 no-one knew how good it was going to be, even though he was already on of the best in the world.

Rhino, as long as they are less stiff than Puyol, I'm happy.

[anton pulisov]

Spain v Germany

Look, I am not comparing Van der Sar 2010 to Stekelenburg 2010, I am comparing Van der Sar 1998 to Stekelenburg 2010.

Van der Sar was considerably a better keeper at France '98, where he was aged 27 and 9 months. Since his first appearance in the Ajax starting eleven he had never been dropped once. He had appeared in multiple Champions League finals.

Maarten Stekelenburg is currently 27 and 10 months, has been dropped a number of times at Ajax and has none of the Champions League experience that Van der Sar had at that age.

When did Van der Sar become a good goalkeeper for you people? Was it when he moved to the Premier Leauge?

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

No, you misunderstand. I agree Van der Sar 98 was better than Stekelenburg 10 (that was what the is/was was meant to convey). But you were using post-98 Van der Sar career to emphasise the disparity in ability. It may be that Stekelenburg has already peaked and will fall further behind Van der Sar as his career progresses. It may be that he is a late developer who has a great career ahead of him (I think he does have the basic tools to be a top keeper, even if he's not now). The point is, we don't know.

[David Agnew]

Spain v Germany

Bryañero wrote:

Technicky Vizionar wrote:

Edwin van der Sar had appeared in the the Champions League finals of 1995 and 1996 - if that's not gaining a reputation then I don't know what is. He achieved much more than Stekelenburg did at the same age.

Rightly or wrongly, van der Sar wasn't seen as one of the stars of the team, and while he may have had a great reputation domestically, he was still second choice to Ed de Goey until 1996, and no-one will be calling de Goey an all time great.

You are rewriting history.

Van der Sar's first full season in goal for Ajax was 93-94, so they were hardly going to risk him at USA '94. But he took over the reigns before Euro '96 and had displaced De Goeij from the side.

So, what you are saying is that he was second choice to Ed de Goey until 1996, when he became first choice?

By France '98 he had appeared in two consecutive Champions League finals and three consecutive Champions Leauge semi-finals. Never once did he lose his place at Ajax.

Correct. I did not say otherwise.

He was widely regarded as one of the best goalkeepers in Europe.

In the Netherlands (where you may well have been based at the time, as I'm well aware you were lived there for many years, and may even stil live there now), he would have been regarded as one of the best goalkeepers in Europe. Outside the Netherlands, he had yet to make his reputation.

It's that introspective thing that all nations do in viewing their own players and league as being a lot better than they actually are. Hence, so many people in England thinking that Steven Gerrard is an intelligent and versatile World Class player.

Maarten Stekelenburg is now ...

This has no relevance to what I have said. I could be really semantic, and pluck something out of the air that has no relevance and say "van der Sar may have played in more Champions League finals by the age of 27, but Stekelenburg will have played in more World Cup finals by the age of 29", but it's meaningless, so I'll leave that to you. For someone so very normally astute about the game (and one of only two people on this board to have picked the last World Cup winners months before the event), you're having a shocker on this point.

Again, it is easy, very easy, so easy as to be lazy to judge the keepers at World Cup 2010 on their performances in the 2010 World Cup alone, and compare that to the entire careers of the keepers at the 1998 World Cup, including the ones who spent those weeks in France picking splinters out of their respective arses. Right now, David Seaman is currently seen as a much better keeper than Joe Hart. When David Seaman was Joe Hart's age, he'd just been relegated with Birmingham City, and moving to Queens Park Rangers. As a keeper, Seaman didn't emerge as a possible great until he was 25.

It would be better if you could make some claims as to which goalkeeping performances in the 1998 tournament (seeing as that's your complaint with the 2010 one) were so great as to be missing. I've even started you off with Chilavert v Spain.

[anton pulisov]

Spain v Germany

The original point I was making was that goalkeeping at France '98 was better than South Africa 2010.

Van der Sar 1998 was clearly a better keeper than Stekelenburg 2010 is.

edit: Just to add, I've probably seen more of these two keepers than anyone here bar Purple Cow, both on TV and live in the stadium.

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

The keeping, or the keepers? The keeping has been poor (because of the ridiculous ball) but to early to say on the keepers. You say Casillas is part of a shocking back 5, I think Casillas will be seen as an all time great, even if this tournament (and in fact this season) he's not been at his best. There's a reason why two very very capable keepers in Reina and Valdes are sitting on the bench.

[David Agnew]

Spain v Germany

Bryañero wrote:

Look, I am not comparing Van der Sar 2010 to Stekelenburg 2010, I am comparing Van der Sar 1998 to Stekelenburg 2010.

No Bryan, you are actually comparing Toldo 1990-2010, Pagliuca 1987-2007, Buffon 1995-2010, Schmeichel 1981-2003, Barthez 1990-2007, Chilavert 1982-2004, van der Sar 1988-2010, Kahn 1987-2008, Lehmann 1988-2010, Friedel 1995-2010 and Seaman 1982-2004 with 126 specific goalkeeping performances from 36 different keepers

Van der Sar was considerably a better keeper at France '98, where he was aged 27 and 9 months. Since his first appearance in the Ajax starting eleven he had never been dropped once. He had appeared in multiple Champions League finals.

And when comparing the relative merits of what goalkeepers in the 1998 and 2010 World Cups did, Champions League performances are meaningless. van der Sar could have spent 1998 throwing the ball into his own net, and it still wouldn't have made a difference to his World Cup performances.

[David Agnew]

Spain v Germany

Bryañero wrote:

The original point I was making was that goalkeeping at France '98 was better than South Africa 2010.

A point which I dispute, I've told you why I dispute it, and you've gone rambling on a wild goose chase comparing van der Sarr's career with Stekelenburg's.

Van der Sar 1998 was clearly a better keeper than Stekelenburg 2010 is.

A point which I don't dispute.

edit: Just to add, I've probably seen more of these two keepers than anyone here bar Purple Cow, both on TV and live in the stadium.

A point which doesn't really matter.

[Bored Of Education]

Spain v Germany

What a shocking back five Spain have, though

Hold on, I know this has been pointed out but, even after being found out a couple of times last night and saved by bad refereeing decision, Casillas, Puyol and Pique are not shocking. Even Capdevila and especially Ramos improved.

Not the best WC back 5 ever but shocking? That is just lunacy

[Etienne]

Spain v Germany

As mentioned on another thread, that's seven knock out games in the last WC and EC without the Spanish defence conceding a goal. Not bad for a shocking back five.

[anton pulisov]

Spain v Germany

Technicky Vizionar wrote:

Bryañero wrote:

The original point I was making was that goalkeeping at France '98 was better than South Africa 2010.

A point which I dispute, I've told you why I dispute it, and you've gone rambling on a wild goose chase comparing van der Sarr's career with Stekelenburg's.

Van der Sar 1998 was clearly a better keeper than Stekelenburg 2010 is.

A point which I don't dispute.

edit: Just to add, I've probably seen more of these two keepers than anyone here bar Purple Cow, both on TV and live in the stadium.

A point which doesn't really matter.

Now you're just pulling my leg.