Why Would England Winning The World Cup Be A Bad Thing?

[Simon G]

Oh for sure the media will have the field day of all field days, and will milk it for more than it's worth. But for the vast majority of the population life moved on very quickly after the Ashes and RUWC wins, and it would in this case (albeit there would be more dust to settle, football being for bigger than either of those sports).

Your mention of the Ashes in 2005 and RWC wins got me thinking - when England teams do well at something and achieve something great, more often than not videos/DVDs are released as souvenirs. The same as when clubs achieve something monumental (Cheltenham released a DVD for beating Burton Albion 6-5 for example).

Does anyone actually watch these things over when they buy them? I've watched the 1966 World Cup final game once, but the fact that I knew what was going to happen meant that it didn't carry any great occasion to me. Do people buy them just as a souvenir, or to show their kids/grandkids when old enough? Or are there people that will watch these things over and over?

[Satchmo Distel]

Lufthansa's in-flight entertainment menu has a documentary called Die Mannschaft on the 2014 team so it seems to be a global thing.

[ursus arctos]

La Gazzetta puts out DVD series and commemorative volumes with great regularity.

Both Italy and Germany issue postage stamps celebrating each winner of their respective top flights.

[Gangster Octopus]

Of course England would never boycott/ abandon a tournament won by someone else...

Which reminds me that according to the Beeb's commentator last Sunday, England's biggest competitive win was 9-0 against Luxembourg. Obviously the 13-2 against Ireland wasn't competitive...

[Jah Womble]

Jah, I'd be perfectly happy for you personally, and everyone like you, to have all the craic associated with doing well in an international tournament, and all the other assorted bits of fun that comes with that. But there are wider issues here. Right now the UK is leaving the EU because English exceptionalism is so strong that a substantial proportion of the UK population thinks that the UK is big enough and powerful enough to go it alone. This delusion has turned the discussions between the EU and the Uk into a nightmare, and it's reached the point where the Irish Taoiseach said the following yesterday at the summit.

We’re two years telling people it can’t be cherry picking, it can’t be cake and eat it. So it needs to understand that we’re a union of 27 member states, 500m people. We have laws and rules and principles and they can’t be changed for any one country, even a great country like Britain....

Any relationship that exists in the future between the EU and the UK isn’t going to be one of absolute equals. We are 27 member states; the UK is one country. We’re 500m people; the UK is 60m. So that basic fact needs to be realised and understood.....

The Longer this takes to sink in, the worse the damage will be. For everyone. I can't imagine anything more likely to inflame the underlying problem of english exceptionalism than winning the bloody world cup.

I'm well aware of what's going on at present, thanks - and I doubt I can either. But - in the massively, astronomically unlikely event that your greatest fear comes to pass - I'm just not prepared to kowtow to mass stupidity, for reasons I'd hope were a little more sophisticated than simply desiring a long weekend of jollity. It might well stoke the furnaces of the dumb, but this b/s will abound whether we win the bloody thing or get dumped out next Tuesday. (Indeed, defeat will only harden the resolve of the 'how dare they?'-merchant to sharpen his tools and get on the blower to that geezer he spoke to at a rally last year.)

As to how leaving the EU applies to football per se, I'm more intrigued to see where these entitled f*ckwits put themselves when the club they love is unable to continue buying success by signing top players from the continent.

[Duncan Gardner]

Which reminds me that according to the Beeb's commentator last Sunday, England's biggest competitive win was 9-0 against Luxembourg. Obviously the 13-2 against Ireland wasn't competitive...

Obviously not if we were still shackled to the Freestaters

[Diable Rouge]

Of course England would never boycott/ abandon a tournament won by someone else...

Are we talking about the 1973 Six Nations here?

[Duncan Gardner]

No. Take your eggchasing perversion to the other forum, ta

[Hot Pepsi]

I don't really think I buy into the feeds the far right agenda thing too much. Those cranks will try and piggyback it regardless. Win or lose they'll turn it into hate. For me it's a lot simpler. England winning the World Cup will bring enormous joy to a large section of people I find completely objectionable, and who I take a great deal of pleasure out of seeing miserable. This is a double whammy. They'll be happy. I'll be miserable. This can't be allowed to stand.

This approach will only make you miserable.
It's like the saying about taking poison and expecting your enemy to die. Also, fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Lots of things make bad people happy - good brew, good pies, sunshine, dogs, etc. If you have to forgo those pleasures out of spite, your life will be far worse. If you only enjoy things enjoyed primarily by decent people, you'll have very little to enjoy.

Another way to think of it is to imagine some bands from the 90s that ended up being awash in absurd hype and gigs that were chock-a-block with braying douchebags. The Stone Roses, for example, or, U2 or, exclusively on our side of the Atlantic, Dave Matthews Band. But if you just go back and listen to their records again, and try to forget all that bullshit, you may find at least a few really good tracks.

England winning the World Cup will make a lot of bad people happy, but it will make a lot of average decent people happy too, especially kids. And it will suck in a lot of casual and non-fans, which will mean a lot more poseurs who don't understand the rules coming to matches, but that will dilute the assholery a lot too, so perhaps a fair bargain.

But this isn't the time. Not only because the World Cup should go into mothballs until FIFA is massively overhauled (and renamed), but because of the aforementioned situation in Britain. It would be better if they won it in four or eight years after Brexit has either happened and been shown to be a spectacular own-goal or doesn't happen and sanity returns to the country.

Does the dickheadery surrounding England football also attach to other sports? My understanding is that the England rugby union crowd are hated for being a bunch of drunken poshos, more obnoxious for their self-regard than for their overt racism or xenophobia, though maybe they're that too. And I've not heard bad things about England's cricket following, such as it is. Australia's fans seem to have a worse reputation as far as that goes - not for being racist, as far I as I know, but just being drunken louts. Though Australia in general has a reputation for being racist, unfortunately.

[Duncan Gardner]

Glad HP has turned discussion to a late supper. Too hot for pie so its cold samosas with a green salad

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

It also helps FIFA as a brand in the UK, undermining the boycott efforts for 2022. How dare you boycott an event in which England are the holders?

I think that's a bit abstract really, FIFA isn't going to be any more or less thought of in the country as a result of England succeeding, and England aren't boycotting 2022 under any but the most extreme circumstances.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Does the dickheadery surrounding England football also attach to other sports? My understanding is that the England rugby union crowd are hated for being a bunch of drunken poshos, more obnoxious for their self-regard than for their overt racism or xenophobia, though maybe they're that too. And I've not heard bad things about England's cricket following, such as it is. Australia's fans seem to have a worse reputation as far as that goes - not for being racist, as far I as I know, but just being drunken louts. Though Australia in general has a reputation for being racist, unfortunately.

English nationalism specifically manifests itself in football. I don't think England v Argentina in rugby is interpreted as a reenactment of the Falklands War. England can play India in cricket without the Mutiny being brought up. When the WNT play the US or France, no-one feels the need to make it all about the War of 1812 or Agincourt. And yet the football team can't play anyone without it being interpreted through a militaristic, imperial lens.

Those other sports may be riddled with problematic attitudes and lairy beered-up braying bellends (cos that's all England really does) but they're not treated as the yardstick by which English National Pride is measured. That's reserved for the football team.

The last two times Wales have played England, i've been on the receiving end of xenophobic abuse. The third to last time, a Wales fan was murdered.

Those of us who oppose any and all manifestations of English Nationalism should wish the football team a swift exit. The thought of dodging the mass-crowds of England shirted wankers, unsure if they're gonna sing "it's coming home" or "no surrender to the ira" and "free tommy robinson" should england actually win the thing fills me with dread.

Perish England now and forever.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

How often do England get fined for songs or chants from the stands? Actually can't remember it happening. While in this World Cup I believe both Denmark and Mexico have been.
Or when was the last time England were fined and for what?

[SouthdownRebel]

Let's also remember the times that England losses have been taken out on immigrants believed to be from those country that beat us.

[Simon G]

How often do England get fined for songs or chants from the stands? Actually can't remember it happening. While in this World Cup I believe both Denmark and Mexico have been.
Or when was the last time England were fined and for what?

It would appear that a few weeks back the FA were fined £16k because an under 20 player drank a can of Red Bull rather than Powerade in the U20 World Cup.

As for fines for fan behaviour they were fined £4k in November 2017 for throwing plastic bottles and letting off an incendiary device.

Prior to that, I assume it's the £35k they were fined over the Poppy situation.


I'm not going to defend the nationalistic supporters, or the 10 German Bombers singers, they're idiots as far as I'm concerned. In 2006 I went on a bus run by a friend of a friend to the WCQ with Macedonia and the trip from Tewkesbury to Manchester was full of 10 German Bombers, I'd rather be a P*** than a Turk and other racist songs. I have never felt more uncomfortable in my life, and it put me off ever going to an international game with those people again - in fact I've not been to another international match since.

However, that doesn't stop me wanting England to win the World Cup, and it won't stop me keeping my kids up to watch something truly monumental should the unthinkable (and I do believe we'll lose to Colombia in the round of 16) happen and we get to a World Cup Final. If they won the World Cup it would be up there with every single thing that I have witnessed from Cheltenham in the last 20 years when we went from non-league no-marks to 4th Division no-marks with trips to Wembley, the Millennium Stadium and numerous games against the big clubs that I could never ever have envisaged as a kid. All of them, put together, in my little mind. The closest I've seen England come to success was Euro 96 (I barely remember Euro 92, so I'm just too young to remember Italia 90).

So the idiots get to cheer and try and use it for a political nature, that's the same for pretty much any country that wins it, but the idiots will always be the minority and the vast majority of England followers/supporters have every right to want their team to win the World Cup and witness something they never thought (and more than likely still don't think) they would see as any other country's supporters.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

No such for songs or chanting then?
Not that I would assume to know much about this but political banners are strictly forbidden, and plenty of political songs or chants are punished so it seems a bit strange that for instance a couple of blokes are even allowed inside the stadium who obviously have dressed themselves in some shitty WW2 outfit. Or even crusaders is weird. And probably comparable is the times Italian supporters have dressed themselves as roman soldiers. It a bloody war uniform for Christ sake, even if it is ancient. How much more political can it get?

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

So the idiots get to cheer and try and use it for a political nature, that's the same for pretty much any country that wins it, but the idiots will always be the minority and the vast majority of England followers/supporters have every right to want their team to win the World Cup and witness something they never thought (and more than likely still don't think) they would see as any other country's supporters.

This, very much.

[ChrisJ]

No such for songs or chanting then?
Not that I would assume to know much about this but political banners are strictly forbidden, and plenty of political songs or chants are punished so it seems a bit strange that for instance a couple of blokes are even allowed inside the stadium who obviously have dressed themselves in some shitty WW2 outfit. Or even crusaders is weird. And probably comparable is the times Italian supporters have dressed themselves as roman soldiers. It a bloody war uniform for Christ sake, even if it is ancient. How much more political can it get?

Of course it's weird. It's fucking stupid, like all nationalism. It's utterly irrational and runs counter to all civilised values, but it's pretty pervasive. Sri Lankan nationalism expresses itself as Buddhist monks conspiring in the murder of Muslims FFS.

However, despite all this, and despite all Berbaslug's fever dreams, conflating 'it' with Brexit, Tory election victories and whatnot is both unproven and not even rationally argued. May and her cronies are acting as they are for the same reason we had the referendum in the first place - it's internal Tory power struggles. And as for the idea that any football success would affect elections four years off or negotiations between governments in Brussels... really?

Here's a clue about politics: It's the economy, stupid. I know a number of people who voted out. They split into two camps. The first, like my dad, are essentially UKIP-style xenophobes (and mostly old). They're not going to change their opinion either way, regardless of sport, although they tend to love it.

The second camp consists of people who pretty much to a man or woman are bitterly realising they were lied to - about the £350m/week and suchlike. They aren't interested in sport either, but they do tend to worry about trade balance, tax-rates, funding the NHS and education... and they aren't going to think a shiny pot will balance out the coming shitstorm. I don't care how the Mail spins it, waiting times in A&E are still measured in hours, not trophies.

There is a third group, with whom I have no real contact. They are the young white (mostly males) who repost Britain First on FB without really thinking, and think Tommy Robinson is a genuine martyr. They have had their 'legitimate concerns' promoted by the BBC, the Express and the Mail, and were having their nationalist sentiments embedded promoted by Nicky 'Fucking' Campbell while England were going out in the group stages at Worlds and Euros, losing the Ashes 4-1, going out in the group stages at RWC 2015...

I thought OTF was the home of 'show me your data'? All the examples of sporting triumphs being used politically so far have been either myths, or come about after the fact - eg Argentina '78. Or simply statements that any expression of English tribalism is inherently 'worse' than any other nation's.

Like I said before, you don't need to try to dignify wishing ill on a sporting rival by making shit up about quasi-fascist threats. Just hate the team because they're English. Or you wasted Thursday evening watching that turgid shit against Belgium. Or you hate Dele Alli for playing for Franchise. Or you had a bad experience with the fans once. (I shall forever look forward to Oxford's return to non-league misery because Nef is the only civilised U's fan I can recall encountering*.)

It's not rational, but it's football, so it doesn't need to be.

*Apologies if there's someone else on here I forgot. Actually, no, fuck you all, I hope you finish with 6 points for the next three seasons. Smiley thing.

[San Bernardhinault]

(I shall forever look forward to Oxford's return to non-league misery because Nef is the only civilised U's fan I can recall encountering*.)


*Apologies if there's someone else on here I forgot. Actually, no, fuck you all, I hope you finish with 6 points for the next three seasons. Smiley thing.

Hrmph.

Although, despite that shocking monstrous wrongness, I largely agree with you.

There's an instinctive malice that says that a Brexit country doesn't deserve a feelgood factor. And you know that Boris Johnson - who knows and cares as much about football as I do about 21st century operas - would try and use any success for propaganda purposes.

But England going out to Colombia or winning a final against Japan isn't going to actually change anything in the UK's politics. Boris Johnson will still be a cunt in power 2 years from now. Brexit will still happen and fuck over normal people. Any outcome will still involve all the people in the media and politics blaming everything on the foreigns. So, given that basically nothing's going to change either way, why not have England win and make a few people happy.

I have actually slightly changed my opinion on this since the early pages of this thread. Sod it if there are some wankers standing around in Trafalgar Square singing about the IRA. They shouldn't get to ruin it for all the decent people.

[ChrisJ]

Haha - it was you I was thinking of, wasn't it! I knew there was another one... Smiley thing. Don't worry, Shrewsbury may struggle to get 6 points this year as we're experimenting with an entirely 'keeper-free squad; so at least you'll have company.

And, yeah, Johnson's a cunt whatever. The only downside about England footballers getting invited to Downing Street is that unlike Flintoff, they're unlikely to be pissed enough to vomit on May's expensive footwear.

[ChrisJ]

lairy beered-up braying bellends (cos that's all England really does)

Cheers mate, and fuck you too.

[Hot Pepsi]

That’s a good post.

Assuming international football doesn’t go away and England are allowed to continue having their own team apart from Great Britain, then the best you can hope for is that the culture around the team changes, rather than just hoping they lose.

The shitheads have already built up a mythology about why they lose - too many foreigners in the Premiership, cheating foreigners, lack of “passion”
among the highly paid professionals. If they win, they’ll attribute it to some kind of racial superiority, passion, etc. So nothing that happens on the pitch is going to change them.

But the steps England have to take to actually win are also steps that would make football more inclusive overall - better coaching, openness to new ideas, opportunities for disadvantaged kids, outreach to girls and racial minorities, etc. So, in a round about way, an England victory would actually be a defeat for the xenophobic shitheads’ way of thinking.

And winning and a more positive outlook in general would attract a lot more people into supporting the team and, perhaps, more people following football in general (though it’s hard to imagine football’s popularity has much room to grow in the UK). More normal people at the grounds would create more pressure to kick out the racists and stop the songs, etc. Eventually, budding young thugs might decide it’s no longer worth the trouble to follow England and take their thuggery elsewhere or maybe give up that life altogether. It’s a lot to ask, but football matches in general are, i’m told, much safer and friendly to non white and non-male fans than they used to be, so that’s reason to think change can happen.

ChrisJ’s break down of the “leave” voters could be easily applied to Trump voters. I’ve noticed (hardly a unique observation, of course) that while they put out a lot of bravado and bluster about the greatness of America (by which they mean a fictional, all white, version of 1950s America) it’s clear that all of their politics are driven not by confidence, but by fear. Fear of change, fear of the future, fear of failing to live up to an image of life that was invented by advertisers and was always bullshit to begin with. Or, in some cases, it’s not even fear but resignation that their fears have come true - their town has turned to shit and the only thing they know to do in response is to try to stick it to a made-up simple enemy - liberals, Hillary, environmentalists, etc. That’s much easier to deal with than the reality that the whole capitalist imperial system is a sham. I suspect Brexit voters are similar.

And thus, seeing a muliracial team of their own countrymen do something spectacular might take inject some optimism and take an edge off some of that fear. Maybe not for many adults, but for kids, and that would do a lot of good for youth football in England, if not for the culture as a whole. It would certainly be better than the self-pitying, “foreigners cheat,” “more passion” narrative that comes with each defeat.

[Bored Of Education]

There are several people I love who will be overjoyed if England win it. That should mattter more than the anguish of people who dress as fighter pilots.

That's interesting. I am Welsh but I live in England, have an English wife and an ostensibly English son and have loads of people who I like and love who are English. I can't think of many who would be overjoyed if they won. I am not contradicting you; I just can't think of more than a handful.

[tee rex]

Germany's exit was the cause of much merriment on here, for umpteen football reasons, none of them related to "German bombers, 2 wars, 1 cup, doo dah". But you could doubtless find that idiocy in plenty of pubs and online forums.

The "worst" final for fascists and bigots would arguably be Germany v Argentina, top of their hate parade. So we should all wish for that, I suppose, if we want them to decide our feelings. No thanks.

[NickSTFU]

English nationalism specifically manifests itself in football. I don't think England v Argentina in rugby is interpreted as a reenactment of the Falklands War. England can play India in cricket without the Mutiny being brought up. When the WNT play the US or France, no-one feels the need to make it all about the War of 1812 or Agincourt. And yet the football team can't play anyone without it being interpreted through a militaristic, imperial lens.

Those other sports may be riddled with problematic attitudes and lairy beered-up braying bellends (cos that's all England really does) but they're not treated as the yardstick by which English National Pride is measured. That's reserved for the football team.

The last two times Wales have played England, i've been on the receiving end of xenophobic abuse. The third to last time, a Wales fan was murdered.

Those of us who oppose any and all manifestations of English Nationalism should wish the football team a swift exit. The thought of dodging the mass-crowds of England shirted wankers, unsure if they're gonna sing "it's coming home" or "no surrender to the ira" and "free tommy robinson" should england actually win the thing fills me with dread.

Perish England now and forever.

And there was me thinking that only the English were capable of lazy xenophobic stereotyping.