Amazon-ing Disgrace: US Open (tennis) 2018

[Janik]

The same umpire apparently gave Venus a coaching violation previously. Serena's been saying the behaviour might be sexist, but I'm wondering about racist tbh.

Yes, that's my feeling too

That is pretty selective evidence - as noted up thread Carlos Ramos is unpopular with most of the top players as he insists on applying the rules to them as well as everyone else. He has given code violations to pretty much everybody. If he spots it, he calls it and seems to enjoy doing so. I'm sure I remember Andy Murray having a big rant at him, for example. Something about 'no-one is paying to watch you'. But Murray and others did it without questioning his integrity which, as SSK notes, ups things to a whole new level and completely deserves a violation with consequences (just like death threats directed at officials did a few years back). And is just dumb with an Ump like Ramos who appears to actively enjoy exerting his authority.

Moratogolu has admitted he was coaching. Which has totally undermined Serena (it means the first violation was completely right, the second is obvious and the third is also straightforward given what she said), and will make for a difficult conversation when they next meet.

Billie Jean King has talked of double standards. Which is exactly what she wants Serena to have. Again. She is laughably hypocritical when she talks about this particular player.

The headline non-news is, of course, that Serena is a bully. And bullies, particularly ones whose intimidation succeeds 99% of the time, get very angry when people stand up to them. Which Ramos has the self-regard to do.

[Janik]

SSK, yeah, that's my point, as soon as integrity of officials is questioned in any sport, there needs to be a sanction, even if what went before was unjustified.

What really needs to happen is that the US Open, ITF and WTA jointly come out in support of their official, throw Serena under the bus and suggests that King is seriously mistaken in her take on matters. But that won't happen because it would piss off one of the sports greatest assets, who might just retire in a fit of pique in retaliation. And in that situation sports governing bodies are craven. cf. that previous US Open incident. Making death threats ought to be regarded as massively serious - Serena should have been banned from the next edition of the tournament. But she wasn't even defaulted.

[ad hoc]

When the president of the USTA says in her presentation that the result is very sad (in as many words) then I think we'll be waiting a while

[ad hoc]

That is pretty selective evidence - as noted up thread Carlos Ramos is unpopular with most of the top players as he insists on applying the rules to them as well as everyone else. He has given code violations to pretty much everybody. If he spots it, he calls it and seems to enjoy doing so.

OK fair enough. Didn't know of his reputation

[Satchmo Distel]

The Venus incident is at this link. She reacts the same way Serena did, as if she is being personally attacked:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ight-for-women

There is something to the Independent article that the sisters perceive themselves as being personally under attack because of the history of US racism, and we should have empathy for their perspective but not excuse the bullying response and its disrespect to Osaka. I think the stance of ESPN and the US tennis establishment has been a disgrace and is about protecting their mascot and cash cow rather than the integrity of the sport. Osaka must be wondering whether she'd want to keep playing in the US, even though she's lived there since the age of 3. Must be wondering whether a Japanese-American can be truly accepted as American even when being the best player at the event.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

As per my comments above, I think the treatment of Osaka by crowd, presentation officials and Serena was shabby. But I don't think it would be fair to add "not being accepted as American" to the charge sheet, given that she was officially playing as a Japanese player. On which incidentally, it's a relief to learn that the Japanese appear to be celebrating her given that both people and culture there are more mono-ethnic than Western nations.

[Jimski]

"Moratogolu has admitted he was coaching. Which has totally undermined Serena"

Well, not really. If she didn't perceive it as coaching. And why should she be punished for something she didn't do? (Yeah, I know those might be the rules, but I'd be bloody angry too. They aren't often applied.)

Given the umpire's history, it's quite possibly just down to the fact that he's a dick. But it should be noted that others such as Azarenka are on Serena's side on this too.

And (in reply to Satchmo) if I were American and not white, I'd also probably suspect most things of being racially motivated. Because most often they would be. I actually get quite a bit of optimism from the fact that the crowd get so strongly behind her as "American", given her colour, even though I usually hate the whole "USA! USA!" thing.

[Ray de Galles]

"Moratogolu has admitted he was coaching. Which has totally undermined Serena"

Well, not really. If she didn't perceive it as coaching. And why should she be punished for something she didn't do? (Yeah, I know those might be the rules, but I'd be bloody angry too. They aren't often applied.

A pundit on R5 this morning (possibly Pat Cash) said that the rule on coaching is only broken if there is clear two way communication between player & coach and that clearly wasn’t the case in this incident.

Is that correct? Both on the terms of the rule and the circumstances in this case?

[Janik]

"Moratogolu has admitted he was coaching. Which has totally undermined Serena"

Well, not really. If she didn't perceive it as coaching. And why should she be punished for something she didn't do?

It undermines her as she said he was lying and should apologise. Patently, he wasn't and shouldn't.
The player employs the coach. So they hold the responsibility for the coaches behaviour. It can change the game, therefore giving code violations to the player is the only workable way. As Serena said, it's cheating, and when cheating happens and you can punish in play, that is much preferable. That way the player cheated against gets some remedy.

[Jimski]

Still, it's seldom punished. Seems very harsh in the circumstances - can't really be deemed cheating in any meaningful sense if the player isn't aware.

James Blake backing Serena too.

[Jimski]

Andy Roddick: "I've regrettably said worse and I've never gotten a game penalty."

[Jimski]

Serena is getting a lot of credit for her conduct in (despite her anger) asking the crowd to stop booing, and congratulate Osaka, which is good to see.

[multipleman78]

I thought Serena's instinct during the presentation was a show of class. You could tell she understood that the situation was ruining the moment for the one innocent party, Osaka.

It's getting overlooked with all of the discussions about Serena and the umpire but hopefully people never forget how superb Osaka was through the entire tournament and in the cauldron when it all kicked off. A player with a more fragile mind would have crumbled and let Serena have her way.

I know that apart from Serena, it's been hard to make predictions for the future of the game but i think Osaka and Sabalenka will be battling at the top for the next 5-10 years.

Finally, Osaka won me £90 because i put £10 on her at 8/1 when she reached the quarter finals so i was happy for a Serena meltdown.

[ad hoc]

That NYPost article suggests that Serena wasn't all that focused on Osaka.

Pedantically, you didn't win 90. You won 80 and got your stake back

[Jimski]

Lost of people on twitter misunderstanding how discrimination works, ruling out possible discrimination as the penalties were "within the law". Not realising that the way discrimination tends to work is applying the letter of the law in some cases and not in others.

[San Bernardhinault]

Serena is getting a lot of credit for her conduct in (despite her anger) asking the crowd to stop booing, and congratulate Osaka, which is good to see.

I think Serena's getting way too much credit for her half hearted, shitty semi-congratulation of Osaka which she made mostly about Serena. There was no "She played brilliantly and deserved to win". There was "We'll get through this, so congratulations Naomi" and a very halfhearted "I just want to tell you guys, she played well and this is her first grand slam"

It was less graceless than the rest of Serena's behaviour, but it was still pretty graceless and charmless. She didn't shift the conversation to Osaka the way she could, and should, have done.

[San Bernardhinault]

This is very fair also. I think Williams might have a point about the initial call. But after that having everyone suck the life out of Osaka's achievement is really unfair https://nypost.com/2018/09/08/its-sh...o-naomi-osaka/

Ad Hoc is correct here.

Williams has a point on the initial violation - not because it was technically wrong, but because it's applied so incredibly inconsistently. The other two violations seem nailed on.

Roddick I think is wrong, because he may have called the umpire worse names but (I'd guess) didn't effectively call the umpire biased and a cheat.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Lost of people on twitter misunderstanding how discrimination works, ruling out possible discrimination as the penalties were "within the law". Not realising that the way discrimination tends to work is applying the letter of the law in some cases and not in others.

And also the letter of the law being discriminatory, directly and indirectly. It also works like that.

[Jimski]

There may well be selective reporting of tweets, but most players that I've seen express an opinion have sympathised with Serena. (Evert, Mladenovic, Fish and Liam Broady among further support I've seen.)

[Jimski]

"Roddick I think is wrong, because he may have called the umpire worse names but (I'd guess) didn't effectively call the umpire biased and a cheat. "

She didn't call the umpire a cheat. She was angry because the umpire had effectively called *her* a cheat, and she didn't feel she had cheated.

[multipleman78]

That NYPost article suggests that Serena wasn't all that focused on Osaka.

Pedantically, you didn't win 90. You won 80 and got your stake back

I like to think i won that £10 back as it was in their possession for the duration of the bet.

[Jimski]

My own suspicion is that once the dust has settled, Osaka will admire her even more after this.

Osaka's own views immediately after the event btw:
"I’m always going to remember the Serena that I love. It doesn’t change anything for me. She was really nice to me, like, at the net and on the podium. I don’t really see what would change."

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

I think Serena's getting way too much credit for her half hearted, shitty semi-congratulation of Osaka which she made mostly about Serena. There was no "She played brilliantly and deserved to win". There was "We'll get through this, so congratulations Naomi" and a very halfhearted "I just want to tell you guys, she played well and this is her first grand slam"

It was less graceless than the rest of Serena's behaviour, but it was still pretty graceless and charmless. She didn't shift the conversation to Osaka the way she could, and should, have done.

Very well put. I would also add, in fairness to Serena, that her comments were also less graceless than those of the presiding official at the presentation, whose "not the result we wanted" was appalling, and who didn't even have the excuse of being upset.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I don't get the "no coaching" thing anyway. Why the hell not? There are probably dozens of Serena fans in the crowd shouting out advice to her after every point. Admittedly not as well informed advice as her coach might give her but still. Even if her coach is indicating "work her to her backhand", shouldn't a player a) know that anyway and b) if it was a level playing field the other player's coach would give countermanding advice?

[Jimski]

Marion Bartoli:

"What the umpire did is totally not acceptable and I hope that we are going to have a sanction because we just can't let that happen.

"When there is absolutely no curse or verbal abuse from Serena then giving her a game penalty is insane. You can't do that. It is impossible.

"She's right when she says the men say 10 times worse and don't even get a warning."