Russia sticking their OARs in: Winter Olympics 2018

[Hot Pepsi]

Same with the NBA, I suppose. The NFL started largely in MLB parks or college football stadiums.

What’s the definition of an “arena” in Europe? What do they call the non-arena rinks?

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

It's not just ice hockey, basketball is similar here. As LS notes above, Glasgow play in a 6,000 seat arena, some of the other teams in their league play in front of 600 seats. There are the same pressures around over optimistic arena owners moving in teams for 'content' and then getting annoyed when it doesn't pay.

The other common factor here is the extent to which football, and in particular Big Football, steam rollers every other sport in this country, in terms of TV money, sponsorship, media coverage and public interest.

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Same with the NBA, I suppose. The NFL started largely in MLB parks or college football stadiums.

What’s the definition of an “arena” in Europe? What do they call the non-arena rinks?

I guess we're all referring to multi-purpose arenas which can host big concerts and other events, and would have upwards of 10,000 seats each. As opposed to purpose built ice rinks with permanent ice, with say 2,000 seats.

Incidentally Whitley Bay ice rink with 2-3,000 seat and standing space was the big concert venue in the north east before Newcastle Arena was built, but there's a whole other rabbit hole there about provincial concert venues in the pre arena days* that no one needs at this stage (pardon the pun).

*Arenas in the way you know them weren't a thing in the UK outside of London until the 1980s/1990s.

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

^ can probably drop the 1980s from that, given the NEC and SECC still weren't really arenas in the North American sense.

[Snake Plissken]

Getting a madelaine moment at the mention of Murrayfield. Never hit a rink to skate till 9 or 10 myself, and have never seen the Flyers live, but some hockey kids in P4 had a chant of “Tony Hand, Wank Wank Wank” they kept going in the playground long after this b-list Canadian at Murrayfield Racers was forgotten elsewhere.

You mean the Scottish born Tony Hand MBE, the top points scorer in British hockey history, the first British born and trained player to be drafted into the NHL and without doubt the greatest player in the history of the British game?

[Hot Pepsi]

Didn’t he play for the Oilers or almost?

[ursus arctos]

The NBA was different and rather more like the NFL in that you had local guys in places like Fort Wayne, Syracuse and Rochester with teams that eventually migrated to bigger cities. In New York, the Garden only turned to the Knicks after the point shaving scandals of the 50s killed college basketball in the city (there are also gridiron parallels there, without the corruption).

Hand was indeed drafted by Edmonton

[Lang Spoon]

You mean the Scottish born Tony Hand MBE, the top points scorer in British hockey history, the first British born and trained player to be drafted into the NHL and without doubt the greatest player in the history of the British game?

Heh I know not much more than nothing about the Flyers or Racers etc, my family and friends just didn’t swing that way. I assumed he was Canuck cos all the best players seemed to be then.

[Lang Spoon]

It's not just ice hockey, basketball is similar here. As LS notes above, Glasgow play in a 6,000 seat arena, some of the other teams in their league play in front of 600 seats. There are the same pressures around over optimistic arena owners moving in teams for 'content' and then getting annoyed when it doesn't pay.

The other common factor here is the extent to which football, and in particular Big Football, steam rollers every other sport in this country, in terms of TV money, sponsorship, media coverage and public interest.

This. Scottish football in terms of attendance is hung up comparing itself with England, when it still stands up really well (even outwith the old firm) with countries of a similar size. And it drowns out other sports notwithstanding Rugby. But the death embrace and close proximity and higher wages without a culture gap of the English Premiership/Championship/even League 1 is throttling the Scottish round ball game almost as much as with Ireland and its no academies or proper rational yet fun youth set up.

[Lang Spoon]

I guess we're all referring to multi-purpose arenas which can host big concerts and other events, and would have upwards of 10,000 seats each. As opposed to purpose built ice rinks with permanent ice, with say 2,000 seats.

Incidentally Whitley Bay ice rink with 2-3,000 seat and standing space was the big concert venue in the north east before Newcastle Arena was built, but there's a whole other rabbit hole there about provincial concert venues in the pre arena days* that no one needs at this stage (pardon the pun).

*Arenas in the way you know them weren't a thing in the UK outside of London until the 1980s/1990s.

Yeah as a diversion no one needs, “big” bands either played the Barrowlands a few nights (2000 maybe), or played the cavernous terrible acoustic conference 10000 holding hall at the SECC for Glasgow gigs (and therefore Scotland, Edinburgh has always lacked mid size or large venues) late nineties. Till stadium gigs were a thing anyway in Scotland, and even then Glasgow has more venues. Was a different world to now, hopefully the SECC is put out to pure exhibition/conference use with the Hydro and poky Armadillo coming onstream as concert or sports event venues.

[Hot Pepsi]

Well, like I said, for all the criticism it takes over its Byzantine rules, MLS may be a model of how to develop a sport in a country. Single entity with a owner-operators who have to be committed to the vision of developing the league over the very long haul, and not just the glory of their individual club or making a quick buck. It almost failed and in the beginning there were only a few investors, but now there are no multi-team owners and things are looking bright. And the number of franchise moves and/or terminations has been very small by US standards.

But, as the NHL has also found, the professional teams need to help with the grassroots. The sunbelt still isn’t a hockey hotbed, but Auston Matthews is from Arizona. Shayne Gottisbhere is from Miami and that would not have happened without the NHL, sponsors, etc helping clubs in those areas after they got NHL teams.

I would think hockey could do especially well in Scotland or wherever the weather is especially shitty in winter.

[Snake Plissken]

Didn’t he play for the Oilers or almost?

Yes. Drafted by the Oilers in 1986. Never been clear why he didn't really go for it, but I guess a combination of unfamiliarity with the NHL farm / draft system plus trying to make it as a centre on that mid 80s Oilers team was impossible. Definitely had the talent to be at least a second line centre in the NHL.

[Ray de Galles]

Wiki has it (possibly from his autobiography) that his decision was because he was “afraid of being stuck in Junior hockey earning less than his contract in Edinburgh”

[Ray de Galles]

Here endeth the story of British hockey, 1990-2001. It has a happy ending though, with them going off into the sunset to form another league, one where in its existence, four teams share 40 out of 46 trophies. (Or five, share 45 out of 46.) At last, our hero can be happy with guaranteed success.

I presume the fourth and fifth teams there are Cardiff and Manchester Storm, adding to the initial three arena sides of Sheffield, Nottingham and Belfast?

One thing I can’t work out is how Cardiff are in that group given they are the only ones never to have played out of a genuine arena. The Wales National Ice Rink was less than 3,000 cap as I recall, the Big Blue Tent was smaller and even the new purpose built Ice Arena Wales is less than 4,000. I know they’ve had regular financial problems so were they just overspending?

The domination by arena teams puts the lack of any elite/pro ice hockey in London in to sharp relief. The problem here seems to be that the arenas are too big/expensive and the competition from other sports (well, football) too strong. The Knights seemed to never have attracted enough of a regular following even in the boom years of the nineties and despite whispers from Wembley of the desire to start a franchise nothing has come to fruition.

That recent Nike ad’s claim that “nobody even plays Ice Hockey in London” must have caused gnashing of teeth in Streatham, Haringey (especially as that scene was shot at their Ally Pally rink), Lee Valley and Romford (who have finally just returned to a home town rink) but you can see why people have that impression.

This has been a really interesting diversion btw, especially for a relative newbie to watching the sport live like me, so thanks all.

[ad hoc]

Thanks from me too. I've never known any of this background. And since my interest in Ice Hockey came well after my leaving the UK, it's intriguing to know what goes on there. I do vaguely recall a team in Peterborough (Pirates?) when i was growing up (Peterborough was my closest rink, and therefore where I twice went with school and did something akin to skating)

[Ray de Galles]

Peterborough are the Phantoms now, not sure if there was a previous incarnation.

Edit - ah yes, the Pirates predated them from 1982 to 2002. Where did you grow up then, ad hoc?

[Snake Plissken]

I presume the fourth and fifth teams there are Cardiff and Manchester Storm, adding to the initial three arena sides of Sheffield, Nottingham and Belfast?

Sheffield (14), Nottingham (11), Coventry (9), Belfast (6), Cardiff (5), Newcastle (1).

One thing I can’t work out is how Cardiff are in that group given they are the only ones never to have played out of a genuine arena. The Wales National Ice Rink was less than 3,000 cap as I recall, the Big Blue Tent was smaller and even the new purpose built Ice Arena Wales is less than 4,000. I know they’ve had regular financial problems so were they just overspending?

I know that around that time they were subsidised by one of the other owners. Or did the guy move from there to buy Sheffield? Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the financial issues were around building the temporary, then permanent rinks. That is what largely did for Manchester Phoenix.

The domination by arena teams puts the lack of any elite/pro ice hockey in London in to sharp relief. The problem here seems to be that the arenas are too big/expensive and the competition from other sports (well, football) too strong. The Knights seemed to never have attracted enough of a regular following even in the boom years of the nineties and despite whispers from Wembley of the desire to start a franchise nothing has come to fruition.

That recent Nike ad’s claim that “nobody even plays Ice Hockey in London” must have caused gnashing of teeth in Streatham, Haringey (especially as that scene was shot at their Ally Pally rink), Lee Valley and Romford (who have finally just returned to a home town rink) but you can see why people have that impression.

Theoretically, a London team could work in the capital, if the rink was sufficiently small. 2-3,000. It's failed pretty much anywhere. To be honest, I've filed "A successful hockey team in London" with "basketball is the next big spectator sport in the UK". Been hearing it for a quarter of a century, not seen any evidence to justify it but plenty of failed attempts.

[ad hoc]

Peterborough are the Phantoms now, not sure if there was a previous incarnation.

Edit - ah yes, the Pirates predated them from 1982 to 2002. Where did you grow up then, ad hoc?

Cambridge(ish)

[Jorge Porbillas]

I'll echo the thanks - a fantastic read and a real eye opener for someone who's Ice Hockey experience came from "Wales Today" sports bulletins extolling the virtues of the Devils in the late 80s/early 90s. Names like Stevie Lyle and Shannon Hope were common to even us north Walians who lived 4 hours away fom the capital and had never seen a game!

My only ice hockey match experience remains Cardiff Devils v Basingstoke Beavers (?) in the early 90s although I did edit the highlights of the last two seasons' matches for a sports show on S4C!

[Jorge Porbillas]

Hang on, I tell a lie, I once saw Flintshire Freeze at Deeside Ice Rink but had no idea they were in "a league" until a quick Wiki search tells me they are now the Deeside Dragons (boring!) and play in the ENIHL

[ursus arctos]

On Hand and the Oilers, it is worth noting that the team’s top two centres at that time were Gretzky and Messier, both of whom are “inner circle” Hall of Famers elected as soon as they were eligible. Gretzky is of course generally considered the best NHL player of all time, while Messier would be in most people’s all-time top 25.

He was also selected in the 12th round, meaning that there were more than 300 guys taken ahead of him, and none of the Oilers’ eleven prior picks that year went on to have a significant NHL career. So, while I trust Snake’s judgement that he could have made it in the league, his chances of doing so in Edmonton were breathtakingly small.

[Snake Plissken]

Yes, I think that had he been drafted by any other team, he might have had more of a go at it.

In terms of talent level, in the Superleague when (the real) Manchester Storm were holding teams like Dynamo Moscow to draws and beating or narrowly losing to Eastern European opposition, Hand was still at the top of the scoring charts doing his stuff against ex-NHL and AHL players. Frank Pietrangelo rates him as one of the top passers he ever played against and he was on a team with Lemieux and Jagr. Even in his 40s, he was playing with ex-NHL players in the Elite League who would fire home his passes. One player once said to me "all I have to do is find an inch and have my stick on the ice and the puck is going to be there."

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Yeah as a diversion no one needs, “big” bands either played the Barrowlands a few nights (2000 maybe), or played the cavernous terrible acoustic conference 10000 holding hall at the SECC for Glasgow gigs (and therefore Scotland, Edinburgh has always lacked mid size or large venues) late nineties. Till stadium gigs were a thing anyway in Scotland, and even then Glasgow has more venues. Was a different world to now, hopefully the SECC is put out to pure exhibition/conference use with the Hydro and poky Armadillo coming onstream as concert or sports event venues.

I'll go there anyway. My favourite example of this is Bowie's Isolar II tour (and I'm only so familiar with the tour dates because they are shown in the booklet for the Stage live CD).

He played cricket ovals in Australia, arenas in North America, various -halle and -palais in Europe, three nights at Earls Court and in the rest of the UK? Three nights at Newcastle City Hall at 2,000 people per show, four at the Glasgow Apollo at 3,500 a time and three at the New Bingley Hall in Stafford.

Although there's a lot not to like about the modern live music industry in the UK, at least out in the provinces there are plenty of places for big acts to play to big crowds these days, and a decent chance of being able to get tickets for them.

The range of venues in Glasgow is remarkable, as is the fact that they all keep going - as noted though it's at the expense of the live scene in the rest of Scotland. Incidentally despite this range of venues, they still do occasional gigs in one of the medium sized halls in the SECC.

[Ray de Galles]

That holds for sporting venues too. I've long thought it was the only place in the UK I'd consider living in other than London (and it's immediate environs) due to the range of spectator sports available to watch. My experience of the Commonwealths in Glasgow only bore that out. Is Braehead technically not in Glasgow? Was there a proper Glasgow ice hockey team (as opposed to the Scottish Eagles) preceding them?

[Lang Spoon]

I think Glasgow had teams back in the long long ago when there was an ice rink on Sauchiehall st. Braehead shopping centre straddles the city boundary, it is in Renfrewshire for rates purposes.