UNOFFICIAL WELSH RU CHAMPIONSHIP: 1970 and thereabouts: some queries

[Sporting]

I was watching this:

Does anyone know if Maesteg won that season's championship? I can't find anything online.

How did the tournament work?

Is Pontypool Park still much the same?

Were matches regularly broadcast by BBC Wales?

[ursus arctos]

Wasn't this the time of "merit tables"?

[Sporting]

I think there may have been something similar in England.

[ursus arctos]

According to Wikipedia, Maesteg claim the 1977-78 and 1978-79 "Whitbread Merit Table" titles.

There were English equivalents. Some basic information here

https://much-more-important-sport.bl...lsh-rugby.html

[Sporting]

"Both claim it" presumably means joint winners and not a disputed championship.

Interesting the lack of full data.

[Discordant Resonance]

Not surprising, given the lack of a formal league fixture calendar, and therefore the absence of stratification, would make it virtually impossible to assess the relative calibre of opponents, and therefore of result classification.

[Sporting]

By the lack of data I meant the info we have available. For example:

Sunday Telegraph English Merit Table winners:...1982-83: Coventry OR Gloucester

Why "or"?

the lack of a formal league fixture calendar, and therefore the absence of stratification, would make it virtually impossible to assess the relative calibre of opponents, and therefore of result classification.

So what criteria did the newspapers use?

[ursus arctos]

For USians, it is reminiscent of college gridiron before the institution of the playoff, in which sportswriters, coaches, or others were asked to "rank" the teams.

In that case "both claim it" does in fact reflect disputed titles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Di vision_I_FBS#Playoff

[tee rex]

Maesteg to me belongs on one of those threads about "places you only associated with a sport". Before the football on Final Score there were the rugby results, which were IIRC introduced as exactly that ... "rugby results", selected by the editors rather than having any explicit criteria. Probably with a metropolitan bias.

Maesteg seemed to feature every week.

[tee rex]

Cross Keys was another one. Had no idea where or what, just thought "great name".

[tee rex]

I'm down the Merit Table rabbit hole now. Here's a programme from 1969, the context ("unofficial") makes it clear that this was still a new toy.

http://www.rugbyrelics.com/images/999/9d/00i.jpg

[Sporting]

the context ("unofficial") makes it clear that this was still a new toy.

Depends - see links above - whose tables are being referred to.

[tee rex]

I have seen the links above, and my comment about the Welsh Merit table stands. That's evident from the contemporary coverage, programmes and the like (admittedly a small sample available online). It was new, for them.

There were various other competitions, and some games had a very long history indeed, but the compilation of results into a merit table was new.

[Discordant Resonance]

The interesting aspect is that Munster rugby had a provincial league dating back to the early 1900s, as did Ulster even earlier, so rather surprising that Welsh and English unions never organised in similar manner.

[ursus arctos]

I have seen the links above, and my comment about the Welsh Merit table stands. That's evident from the contemporary coverage, programmes and the like (admittedly a small sample available online). It was new, for them.

There were various other competitions, and some games had a very long history indeed, but the compilation of results into a merit table was new.

The sheer antiquity of the Western Mail version (which went back to the 19th c) is very striking compared to the others.

It would also be interesting to know what was behind the relative explosion of rankings in the 70s after the Telegraph was apparently given the field to itself in the 60s.

[ursus arctos]

The interesting aspect is that Munster rugby had a provincial league dating back to the early 1900s, as did Ulster even earlier, so rather surprising that Welsh and English unions never organised in similar manner.

His doesn't strike me as strange at all given the virulent ideological nature of the split and dispute between Union and League (and football).

It is quite easy for me to imagine Union types seeing tables themselves as instruments of the Devil.

[tee rex]

His doesn't strike me as strange at all given the virulent ideological nature of the split and dispute between Union and League (and football).

It is quite easy for me to imagine Union types seeing tables themselves as instruments of the Devil.

I can imagine the mindset quite easily as an extension of school rugby that still prevailed in my time. Games were arranged by fixture secretaries, and the criteria for acceptance would include the respectability and longevity of the school, perceived fair play, and (not least) if they provided a decent tea afterwards (meaning the grub, not beverage).

If you'd told them that they had no choice, that a fixture was compulsory because of the competition rules, their dudgeon would be high.

[Muukalainen]

His doesn't strike me as strange at all given the virulent ideological nature of the split and dispute between Union and League (and football).

It is quite easy for me to imagine Union types seeing tables themselves as instruments of the Devil.

This goes a long way to explaining it.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

The five nations championship, for a long while, had no trophy for the winners, nor indeed a means of deciding who had won unless a team completed the Grand Slam. The only real trophy fought over was the Calcutta Cup, the match between England and Scotland.

[Ray de Galles]

Saying there was “no means of deciding who had won” is a misrepresentation of the fact that the championship was shared if more than one team finished with the most wins. Famously it was shared between all five teams in 1973.