Badminton fail

[Janik]

So, this non-trying controversy at the Badminton. Didn't they realise this might happen when they instituted round-robin play, with two pairs going through from each group? In both matches where problems occured, both pairs were already through to the quarters having won their opening two matches, so all that was at stake was who they might play in the quarters.

I suppose the Badminton federation were relying on group winners being stronger than runners-up, and so no-one wanting to end up as runners-up if they could avoid it. But it all went a bit wrong when Juhl/Pedersen of Denmark shocked the 2nd seeded Chinese pair, meaning they ended up as group runners-up and so into the other side of the draw than expected. I think it's fairly clear that the match throwing was instigated by the Chinese, but if they are going to disqualify people, it probably has to be all four pairs involved. Which is going to be troublesome for the competition schedule.

[Gangster Octopus]

Badminton fail

All disqualified.

[hobbes]

Badminton fail

That's pretty brutal from the World Badminton Federation.
Fair, but brutal. I suspect this will rumble on.

[Cal Alamein]

Badminton fail

Hope they uphold disqualifications, but I'm waiting for a cave-in from the officials.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Korea and Indonesia have appealed. But it doesn't look like China have done. From what has been reported as appearing in the Chinese press, I think their officials are embarassed by what happened, hence them accepting the punishment.

I don't think the Koreans and Indonesians have much of a case. Yes, the Chinese players were probably the instigators, but that didn't compel the others to follow suit. Especially true of those playing in the second match, who wouldn't have had to make a decision about the right course of action mid-game.

India are also protesting about the final matches in one of the other groups. The match between the Japanese and Taiwanese pairs took place in the afternoon, the Indians final match in the evening. Japan's suprise defeat put them in serious danger of elimination if the Indians managed a comprehensive enough victory, which they fell just short of (India won 21-16 21-15, if it had been 21-16 21-13 India were through and Japan out). If Japan really did throw their match, that is a dramatic gamble. Also coming second in their group put Japan on the same side of the draw as the no.1 and no.3 seeds, which they wouldn't have chosen. Looks like serious straw clutching by India to me, and is only taking place because of what happened elsewhere.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Badminton fail

This is all the fault of the authorities for a) making it round-robin to begin with, and b) inviting two pairs from each country. Of course the two Chinese pairs were instructed to arrange it to avoid each other in the later stages of the draw, that makes perfect sense. Furthermore, if other already-qualified pairs wanted to do what they could to maximise their own chances later in the event (either through going through the motions or, indeed, deliberately losing), fair play to them. It's not as if football's World Cup hasn't provided the world with examples enough of the dangers of round-robins where more than just the group winners qualify automatically.

And finally, it seems a pretty dour and absurd decision to disqualify two pairs for winning their games (which is what they have done).

All in all, a huge lesson learned for the utter morons who run badminton, who presumably put maximum TV coverage (ie Chinese pairs winning games) over any thought of the nonsense of staging dead-rubber round-robin matches that affected seeding in what should be a knockout event.

[ursus arctos]

Badminton fail

I doubt that badminton creates a blip in television rights fees, even in countries like China or Indonesia.

Instead, I'd say the culprit is looking to maximise gate receipts by creating a round robin that occupies the arena for several more days (and twice or three times that in terms of ticketed sessions) than a straight knockout.

[Reed John]

Badminton fail

Instead of round-robin, what would be preferable? Some kind of complex loser-bracket situation? I'm not challenging, just asking.

[ursus arctos]

Badminton fail

You could have straight knock-out, which is evidently what most/all of the other tournaments are, or, if you think that is somehow "unfair", a loser bracket or double elimination.

Gaming this system was much too obvious.

[Reed John]

Badminton fail

It seems like players should get more than one match. They come all that way, after all, and for some of these countries, supporting the players is not easy.

The College World Series method isn't bad. It has the advantage of being both competitive and fair, but also sufficiently complicated to entice those who enjoy that sort of thing.

64 teams set up into 16 four team round robins. Only the winner advances.
Then the remaining teams pair off into best of three series.
The eight winners of that move on to the finals which is a double elimination tournament.
The last two teams standing play a best of three for all of the marbles.

[ursus arctos]

Badminton fail

Though it's worth noting that every tennis major is single elimination, and no one blinks an eye.

Double elimination is more necessary in baseball because of the relative importance of pitchers to a team.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

This is the first time Badminton has been anything other than a straight knock-out. And, one guesses, the last. The World Badminton Federations reasons for doing it were (publically given as) extending the competition time for the people likely to go out early.

The round-robin format they are using for the Singles works a bit better. It's groups of three players, with only one advancing. So you cannot change your spot in the draw with a well-timed defeat. But, as with all three person/team pools, it does risk the situation where a player goes into the last match only needing to pick up a certianly number of points to go through, rather than actually having to win. So they could get to that point and then relax and not expend too much extra energy, but there would be no incentive to deliberately miss.

Tennis* experimented with round robin group as part of the ATP Tour events a few years back. That was purely commercial, they wanted to make sure they didn't lose the top seeds/biggest names from events after just one match. It didn't go well, for slightly different reasons to this one. What they found was that players with limited chances of going through were pulling out tournaments prior to their final pool matches due to 'injury', which made for distorted group tables. So the whole thing was quietly drop halfway through the season.

* - yes, sorry, it always comes back to Tennis with me

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Reed John wrote: It seems like players should get more than one match. They come all that way, after all, and for some of these countries, supporting the players is not easy.

ursus arctos wrote: Though it's worth noting that every tennis major is single elimination, and no one blinks an eye.

Hah. Well, I was too slow to hit submit, I guess.

ursus, whilst the Slams are all single elimination, the Men's and Women's Tour Finals do use a round robin format. They try and avoid the injury withdrawal problems by giving large amounts of prize money and ranking points for every pool stage match won. And even then, there are usually a couple of alternates playing come the final group games.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

The end of Tennis ill-fated experiment with round robins.

[ursus arctos]

Badminton fail

Do you consider the Tour Finals a "major"?

I've always found them (under all of their various guises) to be manufactured events without real prestige.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Not a major, but they have definite prestige. Fifth most important event in a non-Olympic year, in my opinion, ahead of any Masters Series/Premier Mandatory events.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

Badminton fail

ursus arctos wrote: You could have straight knock-out, which is evidently what most/all of the other tournaments are, or, if you think that is somehow "unfair", a loser bracket or double elimination.

Gaming this system was much too obvious.

Like in football, where Japan rested more than half their side in the last game and got who they wanted in the QF.
Why stop with badminton, why not have straight elimination in football as well, then?

[ursus arctos]

Badminton fail

I'd agree with that.

By "prestige" I meant something like "resonance outside the sport". I doubt that even casual tennis fans could tell you who the current title holders are, let alone Joe Sports Fan.

I've been pleased by the way that tennis has taken to the Olympics. I'm not at all sure that golfers would be as keen.

[Gangster Octopus]

Badminton fail

Janik wrote: Korea and Indonesia have appealed.

Failed. How're the quarters going to look now?

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Good question. They have two alternatives, as I see it. Skip the quarters, and have the four teams that got through play from the semis, or blank the DQ'ed pairs from the groups and advance the 3rd and 4th place finishers. I'm guessing they will go for the later.

[Reed John]

Badminton fail

I don't think that tennis tournaments can be a model for olympic badminton. If you get bounced from a pro tennis tournament, tough luck but it's just on to the next one and then the next one. Even the majors are held every year.

But the Olympics are THE OLYMPIC GAMES, certainly the most important badminton tournament in the world or, at least, it's certainly the biggest showcase for their sport and it's only every four years. They have every reason for wanting to milk as many games out of that as they can. And, as far as I can tell, a single badminton match is less exhausting than a single tennis match, so it's easier to play more games.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Yep, looks like option B from the official site.

I was there in person when Sorokina/Vislova lost heavily to the Wang/Yu in one of the matches that has been wiped from history. Hmm, not sure how I feel about that. Also saw the match between Choo/Veeran and Edwards/Viljoen. The South Africans are particularly fortunate to have this happen to them, as they were not of the same standard even of the Australian pair, let alone a match for the stronger pairs who were in action that day.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Badminton fail

Yeah, reports suggest some 3rd place finishers are going to get a second chance. Which in turn will upset some other pairs who lost twice then didn't show up for their last group games, not anticipating that 3rd place would get them anything ... chaos.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Some of the badminton matches were over inside half-an-hour, so yes, you are probably right that they are phyiscally capable of more.
However, the Olympic Tennis is single elimination. As was Olympic Badminton until this event. As are major Badminton events, like the All England Championships. So there is enough precendent for having it as single elimination, especially given the problems that round robins through up.

btw, it seems one of the quarter-finals has already been played. And Edwards and Viljoen kept up their form, losing to Sorokina and Vislova 21-9 21-7. Total match time = 20 minutes.

[Janik]

Badminton fail

Rogin the Kitten Minder wrote: Yeah, reports suggest some 3rd place finishers are going to get a second chance. Which in turn will upset some other pairs who lost twice then didn't show up for their last group games, not anticipating that 3rd place would get them anything ... chaos.

3rd and 4th place have been put through, Rogin. So there will no complaints about that. Although I wonder if the pairs that finished third in Groups B and D are a little irritated that the pairs finishing 4th in Groups A and C were placed ahead of them.