UEFA Nations League

[Patrick Thistle]

Apparently joking about scousers is anti Irish now. Must be why we can't have a hard border in the Irish Sea. Need to have it round Merseyside instead.

[Southport Zeb]

Apparently joking about scousers is anti Irish now. Must be why we can't have a hard border in the Irish Sea. Need to have it round Merseyside instead.

Liverpool had an Irish Nationalist MP until 1929. To confuse things further he represented the Liverpool Scotland constituency.

[Duncan Gardner]

Gareth McAuley may have been playing then- not sure about Wazza

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Another factor that distinguishes the current crop of English footballers from the "Golden Generation" is that these players, while maybe not as talented individually, have all benefited from growing up and playing in a different football culture. They're accustomed to working with coaches who have a good understanding of how the game is best played nowadays. They've grown up in an environment where tactics is no longer a dirty word. Many of them probably now expect a manager to be able to explain what he wants them to do. Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney et al were the last generation of English talent that came from a more insular background, where traditional ideas about pace, power and physical strength were still dominant.

Except that's not true of Rooney or Lampard is it? You're talking about players who played in the shit on stick period, where they were playing in teams with very structured ways of playing, and quite complicated tactical plans for a variety of situations. That england team in 2010 started with emile Heskey up front partnering a half fit rooney. with milner on the left and Lennon on the right, and Gerrard and Lampard in midfield. Rooney could barely move, and Heskey could barely play. Picking Gerrard and Lampard in midfield is akin to picking dele Alli and Jesse lingard as a midfield pairing, against teams that usually played three in the middle of midfield. No wonder it looked like trap's Ireland. They were basically told to go out and sort it out for themselves.

The thing about players is that they're usually right up to date when it comes up to tactics and coaching, and if they're at a big premier league club, they're ahead of most of the rest. It's the managers at club and country level that are miles behind, and frequently have no idea how best to deal with it. For instance we had four or five players at Stoke in the trap era, and people were saying that our problem was that our players were at unsophisticated sides like Stoke, but I remember Jonny Walters at the time talking about the level of tactical preparation they had to do at stoke, and that they would change formation six to seven times in a game depending on what situations unfolded.

[Wouter D]

Germany - the Netherlands. Two shots on goal, 2-0 after twenty minutes.

The Dutch commentator is going bananas, trying to find reasons why the Dutch performance is suddenly so much worse than on Friday against France. He's neglecting the simplest explanation: that the Netherlands are very much the third-best team in this group of three, and that it's a fucking miracle that they do not get relegated here.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Errm, that's kind of what I was saying - it was the 'flaw' with the previous management/players. The current incumbent appear to be following clear instruction, tactical awareness, etc. The problem a decade or so back was that the players - I maintain a more talented bunch pound-for-pound - believed themselves (or were led to believe) that they were bigger than the set-up and management.

See I don't see any evidence of this. There's little evidence that England are any better organized when the opposition have the ball. There's just five defenders and a defensive midfielder behind the ball. That Croatia goal would suggest that the organization has advanced much further than where they stand. Also I see very little evidence that they're capable of counter attacking except against Spain, a team that played their defensive line suicidally high. There's also not any evidence of a clear plan in midfield. The big difference is that they hang onto the ball a bit better than past england teams, but it really needs to be remembered that every single team in the premier league makes 40% more passes than they did in 2010, from top to bottom.

Essentially all that has happened is that England supporters fans were at a low ebb, but they were the beneficiaries of a major change in refereeing, that fell right in their lap, and they got a very handy draw, and they got a lot further than they expected. But aside from that, the football wasn't actually very good, there wasn't much of a plan, and As Always england were knocked out by the first half decent team that they met. They created essentially nothing from open play, and even less against relatively well organized opponents. It wasn't a million miles removed from Italia 90, where england played a lot of completely unwatchable football, got a relatively handy knock out draw, were heavily reliant on set pieces, and Bobby Robson went from National laughing stock and tabloid hate figure to everyone's grand dad.

The Gap between the Italia 90 team and the Graham Taylor teams of the next four years was a lot smaller than people would like to remember. They were just more successful, after two tournaments where the draw most definitely did not go in their favour. This england team is every bit as dependent on players coming up with some individual moment of magic as any of the dream team predecessors. The key difference is that Southgate has the complete modern centre forward playing up front, but they can't get a goal out of him unless it's from a set piece situation.

And it's the way that people go on about Southgate. I was listening to Jonathan Northcroft (a scot) on Garcia's podcast and I had to turn it off. They're such nice guys, they played darts with us....."the key thing about Gareth Southgate is his Intelligence," largely because he does stuff that would seem basic in an inter county GAA set up. All I could hear him essentially saying was that Southgate was the first england manager not old enough to be his dad, and he dresses like a guest at a home counties wedding, so lots of people who don't think much about football think he's an accountant just like they are.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Germany - the Netherlands. Two shots on goal, 2-0 after twenty minutes.

The Dutch commentator is going bananas, trying to find reasons why the Dutch performance is suddenly so much worse than on Friday against France. He's neglecting the simplest explanation: that the Netherlands are very much the third-best team in this group of three, and that it's a fucking miracle that they do not get relegated here.

That goal by Werner was an old fashioned belter. I'm pretty sure I remember Les Ferdinand scoring a few goals like that, Shearer and batistuta as well.

[Wouter D]

Thomas Müller was just subbed on for his 100th cap. Only fifty more to go, to break Lothar Matthäus' record.

[EIM]

"The Rooney/Beckham are thick stuff (although to be fair you probably wouldn't pick Rooney for your pub quiz team if the topic was his own career) was absolutely driven by the jealousy of their fabulous wealth."

You green, boy?

[Wouter D]

That goal by Werner was an old fashioned belter. I'm pretty sure I remember Les Ferdinand scoring a few goals like that, Shearer and batistuta as well.

Promes answers in kind. Still 2-1, though.

[Wouter D]

What the actual fuck is happening!!?

[Ray de Galles]

Bloody hell, Germany are toilet. 2-2.

[Jah Womble]

Virgil bags the equaliser - excellent stuff. Two cracking finishes.

[Mr Cogito]

This is funny. I bet the French aren't laughing though.

[ursus arctos]

All the more satisfying for its intrinsic ludicrousness.

After decades of playing well and going home, there is something in playing like crap and advancing.

[Ray de Galles]

England favourites to win the thing now, I presume. Suppose it may depend on if Ronaldo turns out in the finals for the hosts.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

What the actual fuck is happening!!?

Virgil just doesn't want to have to put up with Juergen's bantz. That's why two thirds of his international goals have come against Germany.

Well that's over. We don't have to think about international football for another four months. Just like martin O'Neill, except he'll have earned €700,000 in that time frame.

[EIM]

I think too much emphasis is being put on Likeable Gareth and tactics. What we're actually seeing is the benefit of England playing Jesse Lingard, the world's finest footballer. Occasionally carrying, occasionally dragging the England team to win after win through the sheer size of his cheeky persona and social media presence.

Harry Kane is a funny one, isn't he? Top scorer at the World Cup but played shit. I looked at Kane and Lukaku's World Cups and thought Manchester United, The Heathens, had the better striker. Then we get back tot he league and, as someone memorably described it, it looks like Lukaku is playing in jeans.

Listen. I don't watch international football. I'm just quite bored and lonely. Someone please talk to me.

[Mr Cogito]

José? Are you back in your hotel room?

[EIM]

Scott McTominay. Only the player Paul Pogba could have been.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Jose only leaves his room to pick up his Maga meal.

[ursus arctos]

I expect that he has transitioned to Soylent by now.

[jwdd27]

I'm not sure that England, Netherlands, Switzerland and Portugal were who UEFA had in mind as finalists. There's a 3rd place play off too, so it's a full week on the piss for the fans.

[G-Man]

It was very close to it being three of the four World Cup finalists; now it's only one.

That German performance was really good. By the time the Dutch made it 1-2, Germany should have been 4-0 up, or even more. Just a few minutes earlier, Thilo Kehrer had a great chance to score or to pass the ball to free-standing German strikers. He did neither. And once the Netherlands scored and the German defence, so solid for 85 minutes, turned into headless chicken, I knew the Dutch would score again.

I'm questioning Löw's tactics in substituting his entire frontline which had given the Dutch so many problems. Reus for Werner was pointless, because Werner was causing real problems even with his very last action. The ideas was to have Reus play a little deeper, but once Werner was gone, Gnabry went missing. Müller for Gnabry was arrogant: we're 2-0 up, we can give that shadow of himself a 100th cap. And bringing on Goretzka for Sané... well, by now making a defensive substitution was defensible, but Jogi took off the one player who had the Dutch really worried. And Goretzka contributed nothing.

And still Germany created chances. There's a lack of ruthlessness in finishing, and a bit of inexperience. In each of the four games, Germany scored one or two less than they ought to have, and if they had scored those, they'd be going to Portugal, Löw would be hailed, and my aunty would scratch her balls.

[Uncle Ethan]

To be back in England for the World Cup was a real pleasure. Friends I watched World Cup games with, most of them regular attendees at Premier League or Championship games, were under no illusions.

Nobody saw Southgate as a tactical genius (yes, I know) but my lord they were relieved he wasn't Big Sam. Nobody was fooled into thinking we were suddenly a world beating team, or saw Harry Maguire as the new Franz Beckenbauer. But you know what, watching England was fun. They didn’t embarrass us. The thugs (scared off I suspect) stayed away and the fans who did go seemed to be quite civilised. The team came across as grounded and quashed a lot of the tabloid hysteria by laughing it off and being pretty humble.

With the usual targets of jingoism, thuggery and players so far up themselves they could lick their own tonsils now being absent, the remaining complaints are how England played, or they got a lucky draw, or the rule changes helped only them; with the fundamental theme being "they're not as good as you think they are". We already knew that.

In addition, this trend to devalue goals from set-pieces is an odd one. A brilliant dribble from the halfway line counts exactly the same as a ball going in off your arse when the centre-half wins a header at a corner. In some ways set-pieces are a sign of competent coaching. It points to planning and hard work on the training ground. It suggests a recognition of your weaknesses which allows you to focus on your strengths.

Would it be lovely to have an Mbappe or a Modric? Of course it would, but England doesn't. There's also a sweet delight in thinking of the steam coming out of some ears when England scores from a long throw.