FWIW, "C1, C2 and C3" were absolutely bog standard in France back in the day, reminding punters that the Cup Winners' Cup pre-dated the UEFA Cup (though not the Fairs' Cup)
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I'm all over the place with it. European Champion Club's Cup/UEFA Champions League can be ECCC/UCL or EC/CL ... and, of course, the three separate comps are often all casually described as "European cups".Originally posted by seand View Post
European Champion Clubs' Cup is now just the name of the trophy but even the silverware for the big one changed in 1966 and there are umpteen copies of the big-eared version floating about (and I think they changed the rules on who gets to keep one) so consistency of nomenclature is impossible - ye need something like EC1, 2 and 3.
What I love is that the only one with any consistency - EC2 - is the only one that never changed name or trophy but, in English, always had the hardest name to write anyway. That oft-omitted or wrongly repeated hyphen, and mythical possessive apostrophe - on a plural which sounds like a singular of a collective noun - are still hated by sub-editors across the country.
And the Cup-Winners' Cup died. A lesson clearly learned by the shark-like EC1 and EC3.
Mostly though, I like to call them all different sorts of names so I can feel highly intellectual and ultra super kool. Like those people who're into Star Wars.
Sorry - Star Wars's.Comment
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And the Fairs Cup - your C3 - actually pre-dated C1 by a few months, even though the first Fairs Cup final wasn't played til three years after the first European Cup final. Fairs Cup kicked off in June 1955, European Cup in September that year. First fairs Cup took three years to complete.Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
So I can't really see where the confusion comes in.Comment
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Except that no one called the Fairs Cup "C3"
You just don't understand Cartesian CultureComment
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You're always more likely to hear commentators ignore the Fairs Cup when talking about the UEFA Cup/Europa League than you are to hear them differentiating between the European Cup and Champions League. Pisses me off slightly. While I'm happy everyone's joining in the "decima, undecima, erc." patter around Real Madrid in the current decade, "Barcelona have never won the UEFA Cup" is a statement of fact but nothing like the whole truth.
Above all, it seems fitting that the first goal scored across the whole of EC1, EC2 and EC3 was by an Italy international who was born in South Africa and pioneered the game in North America - and he scored it while with a club which has never played in Europe.Comment
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:-) it's almost like I've got myself confused.Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
More déclassé than Decartes.
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Eddie Firmani of Charlton Athletic and the London XI.
Shook the man's hand as a teenager.Comment
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You've just won this thread, ursus.
HONESTLY??!! The first goal ever scored in European club competition as we know it today - and obsess over it here. You've had direct physical contact? You've fekin MET him?!
Yup. You started this thread, sir - this is so fitting.Comment
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The Eddie Firmani thing is one of my favourite football facts which I'll trot out at any opportunity. But sadly too late for this thread. Danny Baker (who I normally like) occasionally trots out his name in 'who?' terms. He needs telling. I saw a copy of a book by EF at the weekend from about 1960. I kind of wish I'd bought it.Comment
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I'm much more impressed by Gento.
I met Firmani twice, once during his NASL days and then again during his brief return with the MetroStars.
He's had a fascinating life.
If the book was Football with the Millionaires (contrasting his time at Sampdoria with the life of an English club pro), it is worth looking for.Comment
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That's the one. I ummed and aahed about it. Perhaps I'll reconsider. I know exactly where it is.Originally posted by ursus arctos View PostComment
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The Fairs Cup was originally only for cities/clubs from cities that held trade fairs so you had some odd qualifiers from down the league table. And it wasn't run by UEFA until the early 70s, so there's a distinction there. But there's a clear line of succession and I'm happy that Fairs/uefa cup/europa lge are all the same competitionComment
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Sorry, ursus - I removed the Gento thing from that last post coz it looked churlish (Plus I was 32 at the time so ...) but Firmani's life absolutely seemed fascinating. And to score the first goal in all Es and Cs - one through threes - is a hell of a thing.
Even his name. It always sounded more like a racing driver's. And that's why I knew about him long before I tracked down the first ever "modern European" goal (as St Jakob's Park, v Basle, 4th June 1955):
As well as the 1977 European Cup final giving me "the bug", I'm always prattling on about the Marshall Cavendish Encyclopaedia of World Football my dad bought me in 1980, when I was ten. I spent most of my adolescence pouring over the European Competition section but in the pages on North America there was a picture of the New Jersey Americans 1979 schedule for the American Soccer League (at Rutgers Stadium) - big picture of the man himself on the front cover captioned, EDDIE FIRMANI Professional Soccer's Winningest Head Coach.
It's not a name you forget - especially when it's writ large in red block capitals.
He obviously features heavily in the pages of imp's brilliant Rock'n'Roll Soccer but it was only just by the time I read that - over three decades after first seeing his name - that I realised exactly who the man was and what he'd done before heading Stateside.Comment
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Indeed. And it's fairly clear that UEFA think the same. Or at least they did in 2006, where they listed the Fairs Cup finals contiguously with those of the UEFA-run competition in the programme of the final I attended. They even continued the 'one-club-per-city' rule for a couple of seasons after they took it over.Originally posted by seand View PostComment
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Same here, mate. UEFA took it over, renamed it the UEFA Cup and probably imagined that was that. Everything's tidy and in its place now. Nice and uniform. No more name changes or confusion. Poor, delusional bastards ...Originally posted by seand View PostComment
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The New Jersey Americans were the "marquee franchise" of the re-booted American Soccer League, which had been a major presence in the 20s and 30s (attracting quite a few Scottish internationals), but had faded precipitously thereafter. When the NASL bcame the "Next Big Thing" in the mid-70s, there was an attempt to make the ASL into a rival, which failed.
To return to the original point of the thread, both Eusebio and António Simões played for the Americans, though not when Firmani was manager. They moved to Miami and folded a year later.Comment
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Yeah I might have accosted Gerd Mueller and Paco Gento outside Glasgow City Chambers but it's the US where you apparently get to see every historic figure of European club competition actually playing - in what, for me, irrespective of how many conferences and name changes and franchises come and go, will always be the Anorak Heaven League.
Mind you. Playing in Miami? That was for the Old Skool - the desperate, cash-strapped stars of the old European Cup. The money in the Champions League makes that unnecessary for the modern Euro star. They don't need to go and play in Miami ...
... they don't need to play ...
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EC1, 2 and 3: Plenty of clubs have eventually managed to win all three competitions. But no club has or can win every one of these trophies. No-one even won all three of the "retired" trophies shown here.
Which six clubs have won two of the three trophies which are no longer played for?
EC1 1955-66
EC3 1955-71
EC2 1960-99
EC1 1966-present
EC3 1971-presentLast edited by Alex Anderson; 31-01-2018, 14:58. Reason: Those are Dynamo Kiev ribbons ... or maybe Lazio ... perhaps 1FC Magdeburg ... Dynamo Tbilisi? ...Comment
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Barcelona and Valencia C2 plus Fairs
Milan C2 and old C1Last edited by seand; 31-01-2018, 15:23.Comment
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Yup, yup and yup.
They've never won the "UEFA Cup/Europa League" and never won the old European Cup trophy* but Barcelona won the Fairs Cup only (3) and the Cup-Winners' Cup (4) both more times than any other club. Which, when you consider the fact Real Madrid have won both versions of the C1 competition and trophy more than anyone else, means European competition is really just an extension of el clasico. **
Valencia won the Fairs Cup in 62 and 63 and the CWC in 1980. Also won the UEFA Cup in 2004 but never quite managed the big-eared fellah.
Milan were the first Italian club to win the European Cup, doing so in 1963 when it was still very small in the lobes department. Won the Cup-Winners' Cup in 1968 and 1973. (Never saw a Fairs Cup final or, so far, a UEFA Cup/Europa League final either)
* And Barca won their first European Cup (1992) in its last year before becoming the Champions League. UEFA trialled the group system that season, meaning Barca have never won EC1 as a straight knock-out tournament.
** And with Sevilla's three Europa Leagues it means only Inter, Juve and Liverpool - three UEFA Cups each - have won any European competition name more than a Liga club (although - yes - I do just normally think Seville have won EC3 five times, more than anyone else)Comment
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Just in terms of physical trophies, here's a question you can annoy Man United fans with.... where does the Champions League trophy that Peter Schmeichel lifted in 1999 now reside?Comment
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Anfield - Liverpool were the next team to meet the conditions (at least, as they were then) for keeping the trophy. The one in the Old Trafford trophy room will only be a replica.Comment
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... and where does the Fairs Cup reside?Comment
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That's the one. I find it mildly amusing that the trophy at the centre of ManYoo's greatest triumph got handed to Liverpool to keepOriginally posted by 3 Colours Red View PostComment
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