European Cup Trivia

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Alex, if you ever tire of European Cup trivia, come over to this thread and tell us what Willie Thornton's 'Zlatan number' is.

I read that as 'Willie Thorne' at first, and assumed that playing snooker with Gary Lineker somehow counted.

[Satchmo Distel]

Uncapped medal winners seem to cluster around the 70s, or clubs who won three or more in a six year period, arguably because the national teams of the time were quite conservative about picking players just on club form, and clubs were loyal to limited players who could get the job done.

Ally MacLeod is the extreme example, seemingly ignoring club form completely, with disastrous consequences. McGovern has just been inducted into the Scottish Hall of Fame.

Today you need players of international class in every position if you want to win it, because you can be sure Real and Barcelona will buy up internationals for every position and the bench.

[Alex Anderson]

Alex, if you ever tire of European Cup trivia, come over to this thread and tell us what Willie Thornton's 'Zlatan number' is.

As Andy said last night when Terry suggested five years had been enough detecting on the farm, "no such thing as searched-out, Terry". I'll never tire of European Cup trivia.

But, as I was once given a guided tour of the Ibrox trophy room by Willie Thornton I'll be working out his Zlatan Number forthwith, so I can add one to it for mine ...

[Alex Anderson]

Ally MacLeod is the extreme example, seemingly ignoring club form completely, with disastrous consequences. McGovern has just been inducted into the Scottish Hall of Fame.

Yup. If McGovern had been capped we would have qualified for the 74 World Cup, instead of being left at home just eight years after winning it outright ... What? Oh. Yeah. Sorry - it was the "disastrous consequences" bit that confused me.

And if you think McGovern would have made any difference to us in 78 you obviously weren't watching as closely as you make out ...

Just a hell of a lot of good British and Irish Republic players in those days. A surfeit of class. The failure to turn them into a corresponding international whole is something which has blighted the home nations from day one to the present.

[Kevin S]

As Andy said last night when Terry suggested five years had been enough detecting on the farm, "no such thing as searched-out, Terry". I'll never tire of European Cup trivia.

But, as I was once given a guided tour of the Ibrox trophy room by Willie Thornton I'll be working out his Zlatan Number forthwith, so I can add one to it for mine ...

I've sussed it out. Will post it over there in a sec.

[Alex Anderson]

And it's absolutely gorgeous, Kevin S! Cheers for that - from me and, if I may be so bold, on behalf of The Noddle too.

My first thought was the Holditch Colliery benefit game v Stoke in 1937 (famous among even young Rangers fans for beginning the whole Loving Cup tradition at Ibrox ... and elsewhere) as this would get Willie Thornton on the same pitch as Stanley Matthews and I could use Sir Stan to really get the ball rolling on down the English generations.

But as soon as I discovered Thornton didn't play in that game I thought he probably played with Matthews in a wartime select game or against him in same or for Scotland v England and realised my Rangers and Scotland reference books are behind a huge pile of crockery, Tupperware, pots, pans and various debris (there could be an original Loving Cup in there for all I know) that I've crammed into our wee spare room while the guys were in renovating our 20-year-old kitchen and ... and ... and I gave up at the first setback is what I'm saying.

Disgrace to the jersey.

[ursus arctos]

FRIENDLY INTERNATIONAL (BOLTON DISASTER MATCH - NOT OFFICIAL)
24/04/1946, Manchester, Maine Road, 70.000
ENGLAND 2-2 SCOTLAND [HT 2-1]
Scorers:
England: Donald Welsh 2
Scotland: William Thornton 2

ENGLAND:
Frank Swift [c] [Manchester City]
Joeseph Walton [Manchester United]
George Hardwick [Middlesbrough]
Billy Wright [Wolverhampton Wanderers]
Leon Leuty [Derby County]
Frank Mitchell [Birmingham City]
Stanley Matthews [Stoke City]
Donald Welsh [Charlton Athletic]
Reginald Lewis [Arsenal]
Wally Fielding [Everton]
Wilf Mannion [Middlesbrough]
SCO: William Miller, David Shaw, John Shaw, William Campbell, Frank Brennan,
John Husband, William Waddell, Cornelius Dougall, William Thornton, George
Hamilton, William Liddell
Referee: Dutton (England)

.

[Alex Anderson]

If it's not one disaster it's another ...

Nicely done, urus (although it doesn't feel appropriate to be too congratulatory, talking about these particular games) - when will I learn that talent alone is not enough: you put the effort in, you get the rewards.

[Alex Anderson]

Real Madrid's 32 year wait between European Cups/Champions Leagues:

Their last European Cup win, their sixth, in 1966, saw them defeat Partizan Belgrade in the final, by one goal.

Their first Champions League win, in 1998, saw them defeat another team in black and white stripes, Juventus, with the only goal of the game scored by Predrag Mijatović ... who had previously played for Partizan Belgrade.

The only goal of the game came in minute number 66.

[Alex Anderson]

This has probably been mentioned in the previous 39 pages, but was Nigel Spink the first substitute goalkeeper to play in a final? If not him, then who?

I've double-checked and he was, famously coming on for Jimmy Rimmer after just nine minutes of Aston Villa's 1-0 defeat of Bayern in the 1982 final.

AMAZING: There were no subs in the final until 1968*. And in that Manchester United v Benfica final both sides were only allowed one sub. Whether by choice or regulations I do not know, but both sides opted for a sub goalie. Amazingly, Man U's unused sub that night was one Jimmy Rimmer.

Joint-first ever sub on a bench in the final and first ever goalie to be subbed in the final. His claim on first man to win it with two clubs (instead of our old mucker Miodrag Belodedici)is tenuous - especially when he's only played nine minutes of final, total - but Jimmy Rimmer still has some serious European Cup final stats.

IT'S FRIDAY (and I've been Googling) SO LET'S QUIZ:

Can anyone tell me the only two other substitute goalkeepers to come on in the European Cup/Champions League final?



*Costa Pereira, Benfica's keeper in the 1965 final v Inter, was too injured to play on and played the last half hour OUTFIELD, while centre-half Germano (who was also a bit injured by that point), went between the sticks. Not a substitute goalie though. More a makeshift goalie.

[denishurley]

Casillas came on in 2002, didn't he?

[ursus arctos]

Yup.

68th minute, after César was injured

[Satchmo Distel]

Casillas played in finals with two Ronaldos. Has anyone else appeared in two different finals with two team-mates of the same surname? Ray and Alan Kennedy springs to mind.

Brazil have obviously fielded several namesakes at different times - the 1982 squad had Juninho, Oscar, Eder and Junior

[ursus arctos]

Are we excluding relatives?

I’m pretty sure that Rummenigge appeared in finals with each of the Hoeneß brothers,

[Satchmo Distel]

Brothers would be OK but my stipulation would be only one brother per finals.

[ursus arctos]

Confirmed.

Rummenigge started with Uli in 76 against St. Etienne and with Dieter against Villa in 82 (as did Bernd Dürnberger and Udo Horsmann)

[ale]

Yup. If McGovern had been capped we would have qualified for the 74 World Cup, instead of being left at home just eight years after winning it outright ... What? Oh. Yeah. Sorry - it was the "disastrous consequences" bit that confused me.

And if you think McGovern would have made any difference to us in 78 you obviously weren't watching as closely as you make out ...

Just a hell of a lot of good British and Irish Republic players in those days. A surfeit of class. The failure to turn them into a corresponding international whole is something which has blighted the home nations from day one to the present.

Dont the results of the British international teams during the 1970s prove the exact opposite?

[Lang Spoon]

They really did have some players though. Liverpool’s/Notts Forest’s Scottish contingent had no problems winning everything at club level. A team all tiny wee like Dundee Utd could reach a European Cup Semi and UEFA cup final within seven years. But in general they were relatively gash for Scotland, even Dalglish really. This seems a failure of national infrastructure and professionalism in the national setup rather than a lack of class players. Hubris and idiocy have doomed Scottish managers and SFA bureaucracy for decades.

[Alex Anderson]

Dont the results of the British international teams during the 1970s prove the exact opposite?

Nope - the results of British clubs in Europe in the 70s prove it to be very much the (Jimmy) case.

[Alex Anderson]

Casillas came on in 2002, didn't he?

Absolutely, Denis. That's one of the two.

Sorry for delay in replying - was at a game yesterday at the ground where seeds of Britain's first European Cup win were sewn.

Castle Park. Blantyre Vics v Beith.

(I was also at that game where Casillas came on for Cesar ... just boasting now)

[Satchmo Distel]

How many fathers and sons have played in the tournament?

[ursus arctos]

Manuel and Manolo Sanchis
Cesare and Paolo Maldini
Johann and Jordi Cruyff
Peter and Kasper Schmeichel

[Alex Anderson]

They really did have some players though. Liverpool’s/Notts Forest’s Scottish contingent had no problems winning everything at club level. A team all tiny wee like Dundee Utd could reach a European Cup Semi and UEFA cup final within seven years. But in general they were relatively gash for Scotland, even Dalglish really. This seems a failure of national infrastructure and professionalism in the national setup rather than a lack of class players. Hubris and idiocy have doomed Scottish managers and SFA bureaucracy for decades.

And anyone disagreeing with this just needs to watch the first three minutes of our friendly with the Netherlands on Thursday. Chief exec had just announced the caretaker manager wouldn't be getting the job - to the press, before he'd told the caretaker, couple hours before kick-off - and then the ref had to change the ball twice in the first three minutes of the game. From boardroom, right down to the actual match ball - it's always been a tor de force in self-implosion.

As Scotland imploded against the Soviet Union in our final game of Spain 82 (and still got the draw which made it extra agonising), our starting line up was

Alan Rough
Willie Miller
David Narey
Alan Hansen
Frank Gray
Gordon Strachan
Graeme Souness (c)
John Wark
Steve Archibald
Joe Jordan
John Robertson


Six European Cup finalists, one scorer of the winning goal in that final and another the winning captain.

Hansen and Souness won it three times each with Liverpool, Frank Gray won it with Forest, lost it with Leeds.

John Robertson won it twice with Forest and another winner - and scorer of the winner in the final - was Kenny Dalglish who was injured but had scored in the opener of that World Cup, against New Zealand.

The previous year, John Wark scored in both legs of Ipswich's winning UEFA Cup final (while setting a tournament scoring record that wouldn't be beaten til Klinsmann for Bayern in 1995-96), and a year later Miller would captain Aberdeen's Cup-Winners' Cup-winning side, featuring Gordon Strachan and, another squad member at Spain 82, Alex McLeish.

Joe Jordan also played in the CWC final for Leeds and scored in a Fairs Cup trophy play-off (playing off to see who got to keep the trophy for ever) against Barca at the Nou Camp.

Dave Narey captained Dundee United in their 1987 UEFA Cup final. Steve Archibald won the UEFA Cup with Spurs in 84 then lost the European Cup final, on pens, with Barca in 86.

The only guy in that starting XI who never did or would play in a European club final was Alan Rough - still responsible for the best save I have ever seen live. The subs who came on were Alan Brazil - member of that Ipswich UEFA Cup-winning side with Wark - and Danny McGrain, just one of the best fullbacks on the planet.

It's a fekin disgrace so it is.

[Alex Anderson]

Casillas played in finals with two Ronaldos. Has anyone else appeared in two different finals with two team-mates of the same surname?

Fat Brazilian Ronaldo never played in the Champions League final.

Which was a pity, seeing as he scored in winning finals of the World Cup, Copa America (x2), Cup-Winners' Cup, UEFA Cup and Intercontinental Cup.

[ursus arctos]

He also played for clubs who have won it an aggregate of 28 times, which may well be a record.