European Cup Trivia

[jwdd27]

1976 is the furthest back with both teams still alive. Leeds (1975) have lost Bremner and Madeley, with just Luis Aragonés letting the side down for Atlético the year before (subs please insert snarky comment about Aragonés' racism, not the only time he's let the side down, that sort of thing).

Cruyff and Muhren (G) among others take care of the three previous years, and before then old age means multiple deaths in each team. When one of Bayern or Saint-Étienne passes we'll skip to 1979, Tommy Smith and Emlyn Hughes covering 1977 (both) and 78 (just Hughes).

[Alex Anderson]

That's some seriously depressing stato-ing there, jwdd27 ... and I'm into it like the sicko I am.

According to Wiki, Helmuth Duckadam, Steaua's hero goalie from the 86 final in Seville, fell prey to a blood clot in his arm just weeks after saving four Barca pens to win the Cup. I looked this up because I always have to double-check he's still alive.

I feel there may have been widespread rumours in late 1986 that he was dead (He's currently president of Steaua, although, in fairness, I don't think you necessarily have to be alive to fill that particular position). This misconception may be down to the seriousness of his condition in 1986 - he didn't play for three years - or my shambolic memory. But I always laboured under the idea he'd been done in by Ceausescu - ye know, for stealing his limelight.

[Alex Anderson]

URGENT APPEAL:

Can anyone help me find an on-line resource giving the actual KO times of all European club ties? Also looking for something which confirms the home team in every one-game European final - every book I have just gives the winner first and I don't know how reliable it is to choose which team comes first on the programme cover.

Needless to say your only reward for any help will be a star on the wall at Langley.

[colchestersid]

Programme covers and tickets are unlikely to be at all reliable for European finals - Centre Spot has most of the programme covers but the team named first was usually based on alphabetical order rather than which was the "home" team

In the Champions League era things became more standardised and controlled, before then I don't think anyone made any sort of conscious decision as to whether it was Eintracht v Real Madrid or Real Madrid v Eintracht

[Alex Anderson]

Cheers, Sid - aye, you're right - that makes total if unwelcome sense.

Thing is I've got the Romeo Ionescu books giving every line-up, date, ref, scorer etc for every competition, so it didn't seem too much of a stretch that someone out there might know of a source which also gives KO times. And, when I asked the taxi driver who picked me up at the station where I could find a bunch of criminally intense, horribly deformed, slavering, sweating European club competition stat-heads, he sent me to this shady part of town ...

I won't bloat another thread (that's a first) with my full explanation of exactly why I need this info but, safe to say, it's a matter of the utmost importance. It's absolutely not just a silly anal-retentive triviality. Absolutely not. You think the country went nuts over Brexit? Wait til you see the reaction if I can't get my European finalists in the right order. They'll be donning khaki and flipping the safety off their milkshakes from Torshavn to Almaty ...

Thanks, Sir.

[colchestersid]

That makes perfect sense

You could try on the Football Programme Centre forum. It is full of the sort of people who would know (and care) about this sort of stuff. Make a list of the questions you need answering & you may be able to tick off a few of your questions..

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Hasn’t there always been a protocol when teams walk out of a tunnel together that they line up with home on one side and away on the other? Not necessarily the same protocol at each stadium, possibly, but would definitely be to do with which side of the tunnel the home dressing room is (at the Nou Camp, to the right side of the tunnel for example, and I think the same was at the old Wembley where the ‘home side’ came out on the left (as you looked at them coming out of the tunnel) and lined up on the left side of the royal box? For Wembley FA cup finals home and away were always simply alphabetical I think and that definitely applied in 78 and 92 where Bruges and Barça fans got the ‘home’ (east) end. Might be a way of divining this?

[Alex Anderson]

Thanks, Sid. I'll give that a try.

Currently watching German highlights of the 1992 CWC final - AS Monaco and Werder Bremen both in their first European final, both having won their semis on the same date. Programme cover and Portugese TV captions/graphics both have ASM first, which counter-balances subsequent reference works always showing the winning team first. But A and M come before W ... although B comes before M and ... oh, fuck it ... I'll just enjoy the fact Djorkaef, Weah, Emmanuel Petit and Rui Barros are all in Arsene's losing team. And Lilian Thuram is an unused sub.

[Alex Anderson]

Hasn’t there always been a protocol when teams walk out of a tunnel together that they line up with home on one side and away on the other? Not necessarily the same protocol at each stadium, possibly, but would definitely be to do with which side of the tunnel the home dressing room is (at the Nou Camp, to the right side of the tunnel for example, and I think the same was at the old Wembley where the ‘home side’ came out on the left (as you looked at them coming out of the tunnel) and lined up on the left side of the royal box? For Wembley FA cup finals home and away were always simply alphabetical I think and that definitely applied in 78 and 92 where Bruges and Barça fans got the ‘home’ (east) end. Might be a way of divining this?

You absolute fucking genius, Rogin ...



SO, all I have to do is marry this up to a pic (or three or four to be sure) of Benfica coming out their own tunnel at the old Stadium of Light ...

Take a bow, sir - now all I have to do is ruminate on whether or not this is a kosher way of settling who was the first side to reach a given final.



Brilliant, Rogin - thanks mate.

[Alex Anderson]

Right, I'll quit with my non European Cup/UCL stuff on this page but, taking Rogin's advice on board, I was delighted when I saw the opening shot of the Beeb's coverage of the 93 CWC final between two teams both playing their first ever European final - and then the teams started walking out the tunnel ...

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

You absolute fucking genius, Rogin ...

See, not nearly enough people say that on this board. Thanks. You can dip-test my theory by seeing what side Liverpool and Spurs lined up at before this year’s - Liverpool were certainly the “away” team so do Atletico normally come out on the side Spurs had?

And that 93 CWC final absolutely follows the old FA Cup League cup final pattern - Parma home on the left as you look against ROYAL Antwerp, away ...

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

If Man United walk out on the right (as we look) against Benfica in 1968 that's another "away" team. Although again made ambiguous by the fact that contemporary Pathe footage calls them SL Benfica".

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Damn, just kicked the Super Cup can over and out spilled SIX clubs who won their first one but have lost in every attempt since.

[Sporting]

Damn, just kicked the Super Cup can over and out spilled SIX clubs who won their first one but have lost in every attempt since.

Celtic

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Celtic

Celtic? Come on, we've all had a drink, but let's take it seriously. They've never even played in a Super Cup. And neither have Rangers, officially, even though it was playing them that gave someone in Amsterdam with a hard-on the idea for the thing.

[Sporting]

Ah sorry Super Cup not European Cup...yes, I have had a drink...

[Alex Anderson]

Talking of European Cup finals and deaths, when did a famous politician/word leader die shortly after reffing the final?

[Sporting]

I sort of asked this question a couple of pages or more ago so shall lay off giving an answer.

[Sporting]

On June 20:

Which final referee shared his name with a prominent politician? And what happened to this referee?

[ursus arctos]

Helmut Kohl of Austria

[Alex Anderson]

Lightning fast, UA. He was indeed the man in the middle when Member No.6 defeated Member No.10 at the Prater in 1990. Died at age 48.

What? What's the problem ...?

Oh, sorry - I, of course meant, Milan beating Benfica. I do apologise - it's just a hip new argot we've all picked up round at The Hundred Club. It's second nature to me now ... really is all the rage ... all the hep cats, etc.

[ursus arctos]

You do realise, of course, that your whole enterprise is a marvelous hommage to the Belgian system of matricules.

It is rather a shame that the first Belgian club to appear on your list are the nouveau Royal Sporting Club Anderlecht (matricule 35) instead of Royal Antwerp Football Club, who celebrate theirs on their badge.

[Alex Anderson]

Absolutely a shame.

In the first few minutes of the YouTube video I've posted earlier up this page, Barry Davies - Mr Urbane Xenophile himself (well, at least he was until any kind of tenuous English interest cropped up in a game) - talks about Royal Antwerp's Eldest Statesman status, as that 1993 Cup-Winners' Cup final gets going.

Wembley half empty - I had an exam the next day - still haven't seen Royal Antwerp.

There was also a beautiful piece in the magazine a few months back (could have been years back - it all goes in so quick now ... at my age ... god I'm so old I can remember when Fortuna Dusseldorf, Malmo and Nottingham Forest all got their Hundred Club Memberships in the same month!) about the less powerful Brussels clubs which highlighted how proud Union Saint-Gilloise were of their matricule no - the first of the double digits.

Total respect - to both those clubs and to anyone who lists stuff in order.

[Alex Anderson]

Sorry, troops - been taking this thread away from the European Cup/Champions League of late.

To get back on message, here's an update of an old-but-gold stat (i.e., something I banged on about in the first few pages):



Liverpool just won their sixth ECCC/UCL - taking them clear third in the all-time winners' list, one behind Milan and seven behind Real Madrid.

Liverpool have lost the final three times, Milan four and Real were also runners-up on three occasions. Unsurprisingly, with a grand total of 36 appearances between them, they've all met each other in the final.

Bayern Munich have played in the final of the European Cup/Champions League TEN TIMES and yet none of those finals were against Liverpool, Milan or Real.

That's incredible enough (to me, anyway) but neither have any of Bayern's finals in this competition been against Juventus (nine finals), Barcelona (eight) Benfica (seven) nor Ajax (six).

Bayern have played both Inter and Man U (five finals and three wins each) in the final but lost to both of them.

Bayern also lost to Porto in the Portuguese side's first final (they only reached one more), lost in Aston Villa's only ever final (Villa's only final in any of the three main European competitions), and are the only team to lose to Chelsea in the final ... which Bayern managed to do in their own stadium ... despite taking an 83rd minute lead ... and being awarded a penalty in extra-time with the scores tied.

Of the five finals Bayern have won, only one of them was against a side who have, previously or subsequently, won the European Cup/Champions League: Borussia Dortmund, who've won it just once ... and who won it at Bayern Munich's home ground.

Bayern only appeared once each in the final of the other two European competitions. Credit where it's due, though - they won them both - one against a side who've never played in any other European final - Bordeaux - and the other after extra-time ... against a side without a recognised striker on the pitch ... in Bavaria.

I mean, Bayern are absolutely a huge, fantastic, storied club but - ye know ...

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

In a ranking list of genuine final upsets, I'd personally put Steaua beating Barca first, and Liverpool beating Milan second. But Bayern's defeats to Porto in 87 and Villa in 82 are certainly the next two and I'd happily accept views that they should be higher. If I had to complete a top 5 I'd say either Ajax beating Milan or Dortmund beating Juve. How much of a shock was it when Feyenoord beat Celtic? I wonder if there are any (reliable) retrospective sites listing pre-match bookies' odds?