Average age of teams in top divisions

[Anton Gramscescu]

Thumbing through wikipedia entries on a couple of African football leagues (Urs, I am still working on this...slowly), it seems that almost all clubs in these countries appear to have been formed in the 50s or 60s. There are one or two that go back to the 20s, but often a few which were founded in the 90s or even in this decade. But generally, these leagues are full of teams which, in European terms, are still quite young.

This got me thinking about Europe. The average age of clubs in the Premiership must be close to 100, if not over it. Villa and Wigan (I think) are the youngest and oldest clubs in the enlish top division (though wigan at 76 is older than most teams in most other national leagues, I would think), which overall one would think has the highest average age.

In some cases, like Ukraine or Georgia, even though the league is quite young, the clubs within it may be older (unless independence was a spur to club formation...which might be true, but I've never heard it to be so).

So, not counting those leagues based on franchises (i.e MLS, J-League), which leagues have the highest average club ages (not including England)? Which have the lowest?

[ursus arctos]

Average age of teams in top divisions

It tends to have a rather high correlation with the adoption/acceptance of professionalism, which came quite late in some European countries that we tend to think of as being "big". Keep in mind, for example, that the Bundesliga was only formed in 1963.

A severely complicating factor in any such analysis is how one treats mergers, amalgamations, bankruptcies and "re-foundings". Are RCF Paris really the same as Racing Club de Paris? Does the FC Torino 1906 that are currently in Serie A really only go back to 2005 and the bankruptcy of Torino Calcio?

The grey areas inherent in any such determination tend to be quite sizeable, and the answer is often controversial even in countries where there is a formal adjudication process (e.g., Belgium, where "matriculation" numbers need to be confirmed).

[Sam]

Average age of teams in top divisions

In my opinion, if the fans haven't gone away, the club continues - so Torino, Fiorentina, Racing (Argentine Racing that is) and so on can all trace their history back beyond recent tribulations.

It's a good question though. Another complicating point of course is Germany, where the age of a club is very, very different from the amount of time they've been playing football for.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Average age of teams in top divisions

ursus arctos wrote:

The grey areas inherent in any such determination tend to be quite sizeable, and the answer is often controversial even in countries where there is a formal adjudication process (e.g., Belgium, where "matriculation" numbers need to be confirmed).

Um...I confess total ignorance. What gets adjudicated in Belgium and what does it have to do with matriculation?

[Alderman Barnes]

Average age of teams in top divisions

Even though the Bundesliga was only formed in 1963, most of the clubs in it go back quite a long way.

The club names often include the year of foundation, but that can sometimes be misleading, as many of them were formed as athletic or gymnastic clubs and didn't take up football until later.

Having said that, most of the big Bundesliga clubs have been playing football since the 1890s or early 1900s.

[ursus arctos]

Average age of teams in top divisions

Except Hoffenheim . . .

Gramsci, here is the Wiki summary of the "matricule" system in Belgium:

"Matricule numbers
With football's rapid growth in popularity in the late 1800s, several football clubs came into existence in Belgium. The first to register with the national association was R. Antwerp F.C.. It was subsequently assigned the matricule number 1 when each registered club was given a matricule in November 1926 by order of registration. The current highest matricule is n°9472, F.C.M. Uccle. Many matricule numbers no longer exist due to clubs ceasing to exist or merging with one another to form new clubs. When two (or more) clubs merge, they must choose which matricule to keep. Typically they choose the one with the most honours. The new club begins the championship at the level where the old club with the same matricule should have begun the season.

The first few matricule numbers are:

1. R. Antwerp F.C..
2. Daring Club de Bruxelles (no longer active)
3. Club Brugge
4. R.F.C. Liégeois
5. R. Léopold Uccle Forestoise
6. Racing Club de Bruxelles
7. K.A.A. Gent
8. R.C.S. Verviétois
9. R. Dolhain F.C.
10. R. Union Saint-Gilloise

And here is an example of the related shenanigans:

"In 1927, it was officially founded as F.C. La Rhodienne and one year later the first official match was played. The team started to compete in the third regional division in 1929, where it immediately won its league. In 1936 the club reached the provincial divisions. After the War it progressed into the national divisions.

In 1963, La Rhodienne came into play to keep Racing Brussels' matricule n°6 alive. On June 21, 1963, Racing Club changed its name to Royal F.C. La Rhodienne, keeping the matricule n°6. On the next day, K. Sport Sint-Genesius-Rode (matricule n°1274) changed its name to Royal Racing Club de Bruxelles. On June 23, the club wearing the matricule N°6, which had just been renamed to Royal FC La Rhodienne, now changed its name to K. Sport St-Genesius-Rode. The clubs had effectively changed names, so although the original Racing Club merged into R. Racing White in 1963, it was effectively the matricule n°1274 that merged, and the old matricule 6 was kept alive in a different club."

[EIM]

Average age of teams in top divisions

We were discussing this last night, about Bradford Park Avenue. They're not actually the same club as the old BPA, they were a Sunday league team that stole the name, and the history, and just pretended to be a continuation.

[dddd]

Average age of teams in top divisions

I only found that out recently about Park Avenue, it was an effective trick.

Similarly, I believe that Stoke City are not the same Stoke that were founder members of the Football League.

[Anton Gramscescu]

Average age of teams in top divisions

No, I'm pretty sure it's the same club. There might have been a merger or two prior to WWI, though.

How do we feel about Aldershot? Is that re-founding of the same club or a different club?

[ursus arctos]

Average age of teams in top divisions

As I noted, these matters are often contentious.

I presume that EIM is basing his view on the fact that the "original" BPA went into liquidation soon after failing to be re-elected to the League.

[Eggchaser]

Average age of teams in top divisions

Dare we mention a club located in a new town named after economists?

/dirty bomb mode/

[dddd]

Average age of teams in top divisions

I didn't know Thomas Telford was an economist

Actually, with some non-league clubs this becomes very tortuous indeed e.g. the Enfield saga (which I don't profess to understand).

[Guest]

Average age of teams in top divisions

Most clubs have some degree of seperation. I mean, you could count takeovers by rich benefactors within this too.

[Gangster Octopus]

Average age of teams in top divisions

ursus arctos wrote:

2. Daring Club de Bruxelles (no longer active)

Shame, that's a great name.

[G-Man]

Average age of teams in top divisions

I think 1.FC Köln is the youngest club to have won the Bundesliga yet. They were formed through a merger in the late 1940s.

In South Africa, the terrible franchise system means that there are few clubs that are older than I am. Orlando Pirates and Moroka Swallows go back to the 1930s and "university team" Wits is probably quite old as well, but even Kaizer Chiefs are young in world terms, having been founded in the mid-70s. My club, Santos, was founded in 1982.

But if one looks through league tables just 15 years ago, I'd estimate that at least half the clubs have ceased to exist. Some of these now dead clubs once were very established, such as Pretoria City (now Supersport United, the reigning champions) and Cape Town Spurs (now Plastic Ajax, runners-up last season).

[Anton Gramscescu]

Average age of teams in top divisions

I didn't realise SAfrica operated on a franchise system. I suppose a proper pyramid structure was difficult to implement during the apartheid years when there were two or three competing leagues. So is there still no second division, then?

[G-Man]

Average age of teams in top divisions

There is; last year the the coastal and inland leagues were combined.

I think the separation of leagues has something to do with the disposability of club traditions. The fact that outside six or so clubs – Chiefs, Pirates, Swallows, Mamelodi Sundowns, Bloemfontein Celtic, Amazulu (and perhaps Jomo Cosmos) – few have a strong a fanbase makes most clubs disposable. So if vanity grips you, or you think you can fleece the system, or you have been relegated but want your team to stay up, all you need to do is buy a franchise. Nobody protests. That was striking about the way Cape Town Spurs – a big club with a fine tradition – was close down. A few purists grumbled, but the fans just adopted Ajax, hoping for a more glamorous future with their copy-cat jerseys.

[beak]

Average age of teams in top divisions

Can I lower the tone by asking whatever happened to Dangerous Darkies?

[Furtho]

Average age of teams in top divisions

...a new town named after economists...

As OTF's resident, well, resident of the new town in question, can I observe that this named-after-economists idea is in fact piffle? One might almost call it an urban myth!!