The Refereeing Thread

[Janik]

As GO alludes to the laws of Football demand someone touches it for it to be a goal, but it can be one of the opposing team. If it was the ‘keeper, it should go down as an own goal by her and not a goal for the player taking the throw-in, though.

That said US College Soccer doesn’t always use the proper rules. US sports authorities seem to believe they are at liberty to adjust the rules of sports for their individual competition. College Soccer already does that with a game clock that runs the opposite way from the laws. And has rolling subs, if I remember correctly. Maybe they have altered the throw-in rule as well.

It ought to mean College Soccer is an unsanctioned competition as far as FIFA are concerned. Quite like, but not actually, Football.

[Plodder]

The keeper deflected it into the goal. If she had just let it go straight into the goal it wouldn't have stood.

[Janik]

On Simon G’s question, interfering with the goalkeeper taking a kick from the hands is an automatic yellow. Standing in the way to block it is interfering. Apart from anything else it’s needlessly arsey behaviour from the forward (and not just because of what the goalies kick hit!), and behaving like a petulant child ought to be a yellow anyway.

[Plodder]

Why is it that attacking players who deliberately handle the ball when they aren't close to the opponent's box are rarely yellow carded? This has always annoyed me; happened today in the second half of Arsenal/Spurs. Don't recall which Arsenal forward it was, but it was on the left wing, near the halfway line in the Spurs half. A free was given, but no yellow. Seems to happen a lot, once the forward isn't in a particularly dangerous area. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the kind of handball where the ball "bounced up off his knee onto his lower arm."

[imp]

My Saturday U19 game was abandoned after 84 minutes with the score at 9-0, 9 yellows, three time penalties, and two red cards. A subbed-out player on the team that was 9-0 down came screaming and running for me for the second time, and for the second time was held back by team-mates. The home trainer called the cops. Yesterday I pulled out of my men's game and, after spending hours writing the disciplinary report from the previous day's game, followed through on my promise upthread to only ref female games and U15 boys and under from now on, and to continue to work as a coach for young referees. All very depressing, and I'm hugely sad that I've been forced to pretty much give up doing something I love, but I've no other choice, I'm sick of taking their shit.

[seand]

My Saturday U19 game was abandoned after 84 minutes with the score at 9-0, 9 yellows, three time penalties, and two red cards. A subbed-out player on the team that was 9-0 down came screaming and running for me for the second time, and for the second time was held back by team-mates. The home trainer called the cops. Yesterday I pulled out of my men's game and, after spending hours writing the disciplinary report from the previous day's game, followed through on my promise upthread to only ref female games and U15 boys and under from now on, and to continue to work as a coach for young referees. All very depressing, and I'm hugely sad that I've been forced to pretty much give up doing something I love, but I've no other choice, I'm sick of taking their shit.

It doesn't seem appropriate to 'like' this post, but have to register my support for imp

[Etienne]

Yeah, what a shame, but it's not your responsibility to babysit morons.

[Simon G]

My Saturday U19 game was abandoned after 84 minutes with the score at 9-0, 9 yellows, three time penalties, and two red cards. A subbed-out player on the team that was 9-0 down came screaming and running for me for the second time, and for the second time was held back by team-mates. The home trainer called the cops. Yesterday I pulled out of my men's game and, after spending hours writing the disciplinary report from the previous day's game, followed through on my promise upthread to only ref female games and U15 boys and under from now on, and to continue to work as a coach for young referees. All very depressing, and I'm hugely sad that I've been forced to pretty much give up doing something I love, but I've no other choice, I'm sick of taking their shit.

I don't think anyone would blame you imp. Solidarity with you.

[jameswba]

I echo what others have said. It's never a surprise to me when I hear of a shortage of refs. Quite the opposite actually ; it's a miracle so many remain active.

[My Name Is Ian]

I'm really sorry that happened, Imp.

I played, I dunno, from the age of eight until I was 32 and I don't think I ever once saw someone go for a referee. I was subbing as a ref one week and sent someone off for putting their hand on my shoulder after I'd told him to back off because go fuck yourself. I wonder about my increasing senility at times, but seeing something like a referee getting attacked, chased or whatever - and I did see a handful of pitched battles between players, including a couple of matches which had to be abandoned - would absolutely stick in my mind, and I played in fairly normal Sunday and Saturday intermediate leagues.

I don't remember ever seeing any reports of anything like that happening when I was on the committee of a league, either. The worst I ever remember was a very lengthy appeal over what was pretty much a Rijkaard vs Voller between two hungover blokes on a Sunday morning in St Albans. You'd hear about it occasionally from elsewhere in newspapers, but very, very seldom. It just feels like it's being completely normalised on park pitches at the moment, and there doesn't seem to be any will to actually do anything about, and I don't know what could be done that wouldn't be completely draconian.

This is why I'm pretty much neutral on my kids getting into football. I've mentioned on here before that they like the experience of going to matches but seem to have little to no interest in playing it or becoming fans. If they do it on my watch, they're doing it my way. But I'm not sure that I really want my kids getting involved in that sort of hyper-competitive youth football environment. I can imagine the look I'd get off my older if I tried to explain why some people - including grown-ups! - get so angry about things that happen in football matches that they try to lamp the person who's trying to make sure that everyone sticks to the rules. So I just leave it with them. If they express an interest, we'll get going. But they don't, and I'm almost surprised at how cool I am with that.

What I would add is that there are a handful of women referees in the Isthmian and SCFL nowadays, and the atmosphere surrounding those matches has been noticeably much better. I was at a Lancing match with a female referee either earlier this season or last season and something happened, a foul or whatever, which could quite easily have deteriorated, but the players' reaction (to I think it was a red card or something) was very interesting; you could see the cogs turning as they veered away from effing and jeffing at the referee and getting up in her grill, as I strongly suspect they might have, had the referee been some bloke. (I feel as though I may have mentioned that on here before, but it really has stuck in my mind.)

[Capybara]

Sounds absolutely dreadful and I'm sorry to read it. It sounds like they don't seem to realise that without you they don't have a game. Have you and your colleagues ever given thought to going on strike for a weekend, say? Or refusing to referee certain clubs?

[seand]

As it happens I ended up reffing half a match this weekend. As occasionally happens the ref was a no show for 3 back-to-back games at the club. The opposition had travelled a good distance to play a low level U14 match so we agreed to play a friendly and ref half the match each. I drew the short straw and got the second half (If one half is going to be easy or less contentious its the first half, but anyway) 35 mins each way, full size astro pitch, for context.
So their coach reffed the first half, did fine but there were a few coming-togethers, a bit of handbags, some juvenile words exchanged. It was tight and tetchy, 2-1 down at ht. I took the second half and was reminded what a thankless and incredibly difficult task it is. In fairness there was pretty much no negative input from the sidelines, so it wasn't an absolute hellscape, but it was just so bloody difficult. I try to let the game flow but that's bloody tricky..... you let a slightly mistimed tackle go cos there's an advantage and the next player makes a mess of controlling it, then chases after it and commits a sdlightly more mistimed challenge. Too late to go back for the first free, and you should ereally give a free for the second one, which will cause howling anguish, and it's tempting to leave the second one go, which will cause howling anguish..... and so on it goes. Two lads tussle in the corner and I let threm at it, one player maybe used a shove to get away and I let that go- then his annoyed opponent jumps in and I have to give a free. The jumper-in is understandably aggrieved but I try to explain it and struggle to convince myself. A player lunges in and gets a bit of both feet on the ball which squirts away- did he get a bit of the player too? Possibly. Another player puts in a textbook 1980s tackle coming from behind around the man to get a strong foot on the ball. He sends the opponent flying though- I have to give a free. One players calls "leave it" and I warm him, in the last minute he calls leave it in his own box (when 3-2 up!), fuck that I'm not giving an indirectr free (if thats even the right sanction) to my own team in the last minute. As for offisde! Holy fuck, it's literally impossible to have anything more than a random guess with no linesmen, absolutely impossible. I don't think I gave one offside despite the oppoistion 17 being camped in the box most of the time.

TLDR it's bloody difficult to ref any game, even without cunts howling on the sidelines. Finding the line between a foul and letting the game flow is a minefield and a nightmare, offside is impossible to call from the centre of the park.

[imp]

Thanks for the supportive comments, they mean a lot to me right now. All I've had so far from my refereeing body is to get upbraided for not letting them know what happened on Saturday night - I got home at 7.30pm, we had visitors and everyone was waiting to o out. I knew I was supposed to let them know, but I was shattered, needed a drink, and didn't think it was worth disturbing anyone on a Saturday night, so I left it until first thing Sunday morning. 6.30am. Too late, apparently. Fuck them too.

[Simon G]

As it happens I ended up reffing half a match this weekend. As occasionally happens the ref was a no show for 3 back-to-back games at the club. The opposition had travelled a good distance to play a low level U14 match so we agreed to play a friendly and ref half the match each. I drew the short straw and got the second half (If one half is going to be easy or less contentious its the first half, but anyway) 35 mins each way, full size astro pitch, for context.
So their coach reffed the first half, did fine but there were a few coming-togethers, a bit of handbags, some juvenile words exchanged. It was tight and tetchy, 2-1 down at ht. I took the second half and was reminded what a thankless and incredibly difficult task it is. In fairness there was pretty much no negative input from the sidelines, so it wasn't an absolute hellscape, but it was just so bloody difficult. I try to let the game flow but that's bloody tricky..... you let a slightly mistimed tackle go cos there's an advantage and the next player makes a mess of controlling it, then chases after it and commits a sdlightly more mistimed challenge. Too late to go back for the first free, and you should ereally give a free for the second one, which will cause howling anguish, and it's tempting to leave the second one go, which will cause howling anguish..... and so on it goes. Two lads tussle in the corner and I let threm at it, one player maybe used a shove to get away and I let that go- then his annoyed opponent jumps in and I have to give a free. The jumper-in is understandably aggrieved but I try to explain it and struggle to convince myself. A player lunges in and gets a bit of both feet on the ball which squirts away- did he get a bit of the player too? Possibly. Another player puts in a textbook 1980s tackle coming from behind around the man to get a strong foot on the ball. He sends the opponent flying though- I have to give a free. One players calls "leave it" and I warm him, in the last minute he calls leave it in his own box (when 3-2 up!), fuck that I'm not giving an indirectr free (if thats even the right sanction) to my own team in the last minute. As for offisde! Holy fuck, it's literally impossible to have anything more than a random guess with no linesmen, absolutely impossible. I don't think I gave one offside despite the oppoistion 17 being camped in the box most of the time.

TLDR it's bloody difficult to ref any game, even without cunts howling on the sidelines. Finding the line between a foul and letting the game flow is a minefield and a nightmare, offside is impossible to call from the centre of the park.

I've drawn the short straw to ref our u13s if we're not assigned one this weekend.

Not going to lie - I'm bloody dreading it!!

[Hot Pepsi]

As GO alludes to the laws of Football demand someone touches it for it to be a goal, but it can be one of the opposing team. If it was the ‘keeper, it should go down as an own goal by her and not a goal for the player taking the throw-in, though.

That said US College Soccer doesn’t always use the proper rules. US sports authorities seem to believe they are at liberty to adjust the rules of sports for their individual competition. College Soccer already does that with a game clock that runs the opposite way from the laws. And has rolling subs, if I remember correctly. Maybe they have altered the throw-in rule as well.

It ought to mean College Soccer is an unsanctioned competition as far as FIFA are concerned. Quite like, but not actually, Football.

US soccer developed more-or-less in isolation from the rest of the world of football, so it evolved differently. A bit like why Australia has such unique fauna.

A lot of the rules were designed to make it easier for Americans to understand. MLS tried the same thing at first, recall. That maybe made sense in the 70s, but now most people watching college soccer are very familiar with FIFA rules and understand them, so there's no need to try to appeal to the mythical dumb American fan who can't deal with rules that don't resemble basketball's rules.

It's not quite rolling subs. Teams can substitute as many players as they want but there is no reentry for a player in the first half and one re-entry in the second half. Most teams use about 15 or 16 players. And they come in during stoppages. It's not like hockey. So not really "rolling."

It's like that for a few reasons. One, it's not practical to have reserve team games - or at least, they think it is not - so teams want to get their younger players some playing time. More subs makes that easier to do.

Also - and this is the real problem - tradition dictates that all of the season be crammed into the fall semester, so teams play too many games in a short period and need to be able to have a lot of subs to reduce the risk of injuries or exhaustion. But there's a lot of injuries anyway and the players are completely exhausted by Christmas.

Also, the rules of college soccer are mostly made by councils of coaches, and the established coaches that have learned to succeed in this system by recruiting a lot of depth want to keep the set-up the can succeed in. If subs were limited properly, teams with less bench depth would be more likely to upset the teams that had more of it. In men's soccer, that happens a lot anyway. Less so in women's, however.

The clock thing is frustrating. Many Americans still insist that the international way makes no sense. It rewards time-wasting (or, at least, used to) and that the end of the game seems completely arbitrary and up to the ref.

They don't understand that's a feature, not a bug. The NCAA system doesn't reward time-wasting as much - for injuries and fouls and what not, the clock just stops - but it lets the team in the lead just play keep-away for the last few minutes, which isn't great. Sometimes there is a true "buzzer-beater" goal, which is cool, but then there are goals right before the whistle in "regular" soccer too and that's just as exciting.

So every four years, there will be Americans (including sportswriters) watching the World Cup for the first time and say "This is dumb. Why can't we see the real clock?" As if nobody has ever thought about that. I refer them to college soccer and teams just running with the ball into the corner for the last two minutes. More and more American fans are getting that.

Of course, more and more American fans are also convinced that we should do everything the way they do it in Europe. That is definitely not true, but making NCAA soccer look more like MLS would make sense.

* They play too many games in a short span, but not nearly enough games total for the purposes of development, so college soccer is a poor development system for pros and yet still is exhausting.

The solution is obvious: Make the season last the whole academic year - maybe even into the summer - with a break in the middle for exams/Christmas. That's how college tennis works and it works fine for the players. There'd be more games total, but not so many crammed together. Fewer midweek games that are poorly attended and interfere with players studies. Also, that would men the playoffs and NCAA tournament would be in the spring, rather than freezing rain in December. Pre-COVID, this idea has been proposed and discussed, but I'm not sure why it doesn't have momentum to actually happen.

[Foot of Astaire's]

A mate's son was coaching for a few years in the States and one innovative thing they did that really stuck with me around junior football was not allowing teams to take more than a 3 goal lead. In games where they were playing significantly weaker sides, it meant once they were 3 to the good, they spent the rest of the game trying to keep possession. I always thought that must have been of far greater use to the wining teams player's techniques than winning 13 or 14 nil.

[Simon G]

We have an 8 goal mercy rule in our league

[Plodder]

Many Americans still insist that the international way makes no sense. It rewards time-wasting (or, at least, used to) and that the end of the game seems completely arbitrary and up to the ref.
.

They're right about that bit anyway.

[Hot Pepsi]

A mate's son was coaching for a few years in the States and one innovative thing they did that really stuck with me around junior football was not allowing teams to take more than a 3 goal lead. In games where they were playing significantly weaker sides, it meant once they were 3 to the good, they spent the rest of the game trying to keep possession. I always thought that must have been of far greater use to the wining teams player's techniques than winning 13 or 14 nil.

That's a good rule. Much better than fining the coaches for running up the score as some leagues try to do.

Most high school and even some college sports have mercy rules of some kind.

For example, in Pennsylvania high school football, once the margin hits a certain point (I think it's 30, but it might be more) the list of reasons that the game clock stops gets much shorter.

Normally, the clock stops for a called time out, an official's time out, after a score, after the ball goes out of bounds, or after an incomplete pass. It also stops, at least temporarily, after a first down to let the refs and chain guys reset.

But in high school, once that score margin is reached, the clock will only stop for a score, a called time out, an official's time out (usually for an injury) and, I think, that's all. That doesn't really give the beaten team much of a chance to close the margin against the better team's backups, but at least it gets it all over with faster.

[DPDPDPDP]

My son went from the UK to go to college in Victoria, near Houston, to study and he was on a football (soccer) scholarship. He absolutely loved his time in Victoria, especially the football season, but he would have been happy if the football season was longer. He loved training twice a day and playing two matches a week and was the fittest he has ever been. Neither he, nor any of his team mates complained of burn out.

watching his games on YouTube, or even better in person, a few things were noticeable compared to football in the UK.

- the respect for the officials was much, much greater than in the UK. Any player showing dissent towards officials was subbed off immediately.
- rotating substitutes was a great idea
- another great idea was that if league games were tied after 90 minutes, then up to 20 minutes overtime was played (2 x 10 minute halves), with the winner decided on a “golden” goal basis. And thus far more league games ended in a win or a loss.
- the stopping of the game clock for stoppages in play was a great idea
- the infrastructure and organisation around college/university football was very, very impressive
- the support at the college for international students was very impressive too
- the scholarship on offer for college athletes, especially better, made it incredibly easy financially for him to attended college in the US. 50% scholarship in year 1; 75% in year 2 and 100% in year 3.
- the overall roster or squad was pretty big and meant quite a number of students got little or no game time Al all
- his majority of his mates were from USA, then UK, and then others from Mexico, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, Spain, South Africa and Italy. So multiculturalism was very important. He is still in regular contact with many ex-team mates and regularly visits those based in UK.
- it was a wonderful, wonderful experience for him and 4 very special years, which he will never forget
- and finally some Dad bragging, he was voted “All American” in his final year.

[imp]

A mate's son was coaching for a few years in the States and one innovative thing they did that really stuck with me around junior football was not allowing teams to take more than a 3 goal lead. In games where they were playing significantly weaker sides, it meant once they were 3 to the good, they spent the rest of the game trying to keep possession. I always thought that must have been of far greater use to the wining teams player's techniques than winning 13 or 14 nil.

The U15 boys' game I reffed on Saturday immediately before the shitty U19 game ended up 0-31. And that was a 70-minute game. Full story to follow when I'm in the mood to write my reffing blog again.

There was a Catholic Schools' Friday night league I used to ref in when I lived in the US that had a Mercy Rule (God bless 'em) - if a team took a seven-goal lead, they had to sub out one player until the lead was reduced. I'm dubious about the passing thing after a three-goal lead. It strikes me as condescending to the losing team. Plus, three goals is not necessarily that high. Same with instructions to only play with the left foot, or only take two touches, or such like. If my team's hammering an opponent, I'll swap positions around and maybe reduce the number of players on the field. But why instruct kids to stop scoring goals?

[ursus arctos]

The NCAA should put DPx4 on retainer to promote "college soccer".

As is the case with many "non-revenue" sports (those that don't independently generate fundsin excess of their costs, including scholarships - generally all but gridiron and men's basketball), it can be a great experience for the students involved and an intriguing spectator experience as long as one takes it on its own terms.

The fact that it is not the optimal system for developing professional players really has very little to do with anything.

[ursus arctos]

Just to note for non-USians that the concept of a "mercy rule" is now common in youth sports over here and not restricted to competitions affiliated with religious organisations.

I have always been in favour of the concept, in part because I can still recall details of the 26-0 and 34-1 losses my Little League team suffered when I was nine,

[DPDPDPDP]

The NCAA should put DPx4 on retainer to promote "college soccer".

As is the case with many "non-revenue" sports (those that don't independently generate fundsin excess of their costs, including scholarships - generally all but gridiron and men's basketball), it can be a great experience for the students involved and an intriguing spectator experience as long as one takes it on its own terms.

The fact that it is not the optimal system for developing professional players really has very little to do with anything.

I’m more than happy to offer my services. (The smiley face emoji seems to have disappeared)

After he completed his degree in Victoria TX, My son spent a further 2 years in the USA at a university in Oklahoma where he did a masters degree. As he had already played 4 years for the university in Victoria, he wasn’t eligible to play college soccer in Oklahoma, so he became assistant coach for the college team in OK. He eventually found a team in OK to play for but he said that the standard of opposition was extremely variable and in the main not very good. He was not alone as his experience seemed to be repeated by many of his former college teammates, more or less throughout the USA. Unfortunately the USA does not seem to have the multiple-tiered league system as they have in the UK, where players can much more easily find the “right” level for them to play in, whether that be pro, semi-pro or at amateur level. Since returning to the UK a couple of years ago, he has more or less found the “right” level for his ability and his available time commitment etc.

[ursus arctos]

Yes, it is less of an issue in a major metropolitan area like NYC, but can be a real problem in a place like Oklahoma (which is much more typical of the country as a whole).