Going Downhill Forever - Scottish Fitba Season 2021/22

[blameless]

multipleman is right - annual playoffs for last-team-in-division-2 vs Highland League / Lowland League challenger came in for the 2014/15 season.

[AMMS]

The last dozen posts on this thread have encapsulated a lot of why Scottish football is in the state it's in. It's deeply depressing that the default for some still seems to be 'if Rangers are for it then I must be against it'. As has been pointed out Scottish football is appallingly run but that doesn't stop some people cheerleading the people running it simply because we must all take sides apparently. I mean one poster's only stated gripe with our authorities is that Rangers weren't put into a league that didn't actually exist 9 years ago. As long as Rangers and their support are unhappy then the SPFL and Neil Doncaster can expect support it seems.

I've little doubt that Rangers are using this deal with Cinch (I'm using a capital, sue me) to push for change within the SPFL. Rangers have Tomket as a shirt sponsor currently and may have agreed not to allow any other automotive brand on their shirt as part of that, I don't know. But I suspect they're just appalled at the SPFL agreeing a key sponsorship deal that's at least 20% less per season than the last one and will run for 5 years. Even taking into account the strange times we're living in that's a shocking bit of business for the SPFL. I don't understand why every club isn't furious at this deal and demanding wholesale changes at the top of the organisation.

The SPFL have asked the SFA to arbitrate and everyone expects the SFA to side with their colleagues down the hall. I expect Rangers will be forced to back down and life will go on. But, I think this is largely about shining a spotlight on the incompetence of the SPFL and making sure that as many people as possible realise this deal isn't really the "largest ever sponsorship" in Scottish football as the press have been reporting. Rangers want change at the top of the SPFL, I suspect there are a few clubs who agree with them on this. I think this is just another battle in a war that will probably go on for a while longer.

As long as we keep looking back we'll continue to struggle to move forward. Yes, sponsorship money is welcome but this is a poor deal on a long contract, why would anyone be happy about that.

[DPDPDPDP]

The last dozen posts on this thread have encapsulated a lot of why Scottish football is in the state it's in. It's deeply depressing that the default for some still seems to be 'if Rangers are for it then I must be against it'. As has been pointed out Scottish football is appallingly run but that doesn't stop some people cheerleading the people running it simply because we must all take sides apparently. I mean one poster's only stated gripe with our authorities is that Rangers weren't put into a league that didn't actually exist 9 years ago. As long as Rangers and their support are unhappy then the SPFL and Neil Doncaster can expect support it seems.

I've little doubt that Rangers are using this deal with Cinch (I'm using a capital, sue me) to push for change within the SPFL. Rangers have Tomket as a shirt sponsor currently and may have agreed not to allow any other automotive brand on their shirt as part of that, I don't know. But I suspect they're just appalled at the SPFL agreeing a key sponsorship deal that's at least 20% less per season than the last one and will run for 5 years. Even taking into account the strange times we're living in that's a shocking bit of business for the SPFL. I don't understand why every club isn't furious at this deal and demanding wholesale changes at the top of the organisation.

The SPFL have asked the SFA to arbitrate and everyone expects the SFA to side with their colleagues down the hall. I expect Rangers will be forced to back down and life will go on. But, I think this is largely about shining a spotlight on the incompetence of the SPFL and making sure that as many people as possible realise this deal isn't really the "largest ever sponsorship" in Scottish football as the press have been reporting. Rangers want change at the top of the SPFL, I suspect there are a few clubs who agree with them on this. I think this is just another battle in a war that will probably go on for a while longer.

As long as we keep looking back we'll continue to struggle to move forward. Yes, sponsorship money is welcome but this is a poor deal on a long contract, why would anyone be happy about that.

I could be wrong but I think some of these comments are aimed at me given my earlier comments about Rangers leapfrogging other clubs. As a boy originally from the north I’m not familiar with the lower league in the south, but there must have been leagues in place to allow the likes of Meadowbank and Gretna to be voted in to Division 2. Surely Rangers leapfrogged similar clubs in 2012.

as for your comment about “cheerleading for the people running the game”, I called these people clowns and disagreed with many of the stupid decisions they have made over the years. I can’t think of any other organization wherein Neil Doncaster would have survived repeated fiascos - the Rangers/ cinch being the latest of these. Having said that, I can’t think of any other organization with a voting structure that requires an 11-1 majority to enact change.

the sponsorship money and the tv money in Scotland is abysmally low - another reason why Doncaster and his cronies at the SPFL should be booted out the door.

in your last paragraph you say as long as we keep looking back, we’ll struggle to move forward. Do you have any suggestions that would make Scottish football more competitive? It’s appalling that for the last 36 years that only 2 clubs have won the league. And I can’t see that situation changing in my lifetime. the lack of competitiveness is getting worse - whoever finishes third behind Rangers and Celtic are likely to be 30 to 40 points behind (last year third placed Hibs finished 39 points behind champions Rangers). The increasing lack of competitiveness is greatly assisted by UEFA who are helping to make leagues across Europe less competitive with the structure of their tournaments and the ridiculous financial awards.

in all honesty the only way I can see the league improving is for Rangers and Celtic to move - presumably to England or the Atlantic League, if it ever gets formed - leaving the likes of Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Johnstone etc to at least be on a somewhat level playing field which should result in a competitive league.

[DPDPDPDP]

I forgot to mention in the above post that I read somewhere that the SPFL engaged a consultant to arrange the sponsorship. WTF is that all about. You could understand the need for a consultant if there were special legislative and/or complex statutory issues, but all they’re doing is organizing sponsorship. I also read that the consultant was paid circa £400,000. For doing what? It would have been great if the consultant was able to secure a mouth watering, eye popping sponsorship amount but has AMMS has said above, the sponsorship is 20% less than the current deal (which itself isn’t great) and it’s a 5 year deal. Staggering.

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

I could be wrong but I think some of these comments are aimed at me given my earlier comments about Rangers leapfrogging other clubs. As a boy originally from the north I’m not familiar with the lower league in the south, but there must have been leagues in place to allow the likes of Meadowbank and Gretna to be voted in to Division 2. Surely Rangers leapfrogged similar clubs in 2012.

I've got no dog in this discussion, but on a point of order Gretna went from the English pyramid into the Scottish League in 2002.

[BallochSonsFan]

I've got no dog in this discussion, but on a point of order Gretna went from the English pyramid into the Scottish League in 2002.

Could also argue that with the development of the Northern League, and particularly the relative strength of the Northern Premier, Berwick Rangers should really be moved to the English pyramid system.

[Lang Spoon]

Isn't that a logistics issue? Berwick is pretty far from anywhere else in Northern England.

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Could also argue that with the development of the Northern League, and particularly the relative strength of the Northern Premier, Berwick Rangers should really be moved to the English pyramid system.

I wasn't raising it as a precedent for cross-border moves, just pointing out that Gretna didn't come from a league that was "in place" for aspiring SFL entrants - there was of course such a league, it was just that Gretna chose not to play in it, so it's probably irrelevant. But I did end up in a wiki hole (and the WSC archive) reading about Wigan and South Shields/Gateshead United's attempts to join the SFL in the 1970s, so it wasn't all a waste of time.

[BallochSonsFan]

Isn't that a logistics issue? Berwick is pretty far from anywhere else in Northern England.

Its no further from the likes of Shields than it is from Broomhill.

[blameless]

Given that Berwick have held SFA membership for more than a century and currently get to play local derbies against Gala and Vale of Leithen in the Lowland League, why should they join the English pyramid? Why should we want them to?

[blameless]

And AMMS - if we have to explicitly state that SPFL management are useless fuds every time we're discussing the Scottish game, it'll get repetitive very quickly. We can just take it as read.

[DPDPDPDP]

And AMMS - if we have to explicitly state that SPFL management are useless fuds every time we're discussing the Scottish game, it'll get repetitive very quickly. We can just take it as read.

Blameless, I think you’re being very kind by calling them useless fuds. However, it’s only what the clubs deserve. They really only have their own interests at heart and are not interested in Scottish football as a whole. The 11-1 voting structure is an example for that and I will never forgive Aberdeen chairman Stewart Milne for voting with Celtic not to change this.

[Discordant Resonance]

Good to see Queens Park on the up in recent seasons, if it does, sadly, seem to be directly linked to their decision to abandon amateurism.

[BallochSonsFan]

Good to see Queens Park on the up in recent seasons, if it does, sadly, seem to be directly linked to their decision to abandon amateurism.

I was at the game yesterday.

On one hand it's great to see a traditional club like Queens Park progressing. On the other hand, it's being done on the basis of them abandoning their traditions. There's no way that Simon Murray is a League One player and their squad overall is really strong. Could they do that without the money they've made selling Hampden to the SFA? The absolutely horsed us yesterday. 3-0 and did it easily. You want to see ambitious clubs doing well but part of me hates to see them essentially buying their progression. Same with Kelty and Hurlford/Darvel in the old juniors. A few clubs are starting to look at building for the future. You'd expect Talbot to progress and Pollok are looking at improving facilities at Newlandsfield. Clubs doing it in the right way.

Maybe it's a bit of jealousy in there too. Most lower league fans would secretly love to see our clubs with stronger finances and things improving across the board. But you wonder where the likes of Kelty and Queens Park will be 10 years down the line?

[AMMS]

Usually most of the Berwick Rangers squad are Edinburgh based, for many of them Recreation Park is a lot easier to get to than Shielfield. Anyway, don't think I can't see what's going on here, trying to push Berwick out of the league just because they're called Rangers. I'm on to you. Us, Cove, Berwick, Cambuslang and Kilsyth are watching you lot...

blameless, I'd always assumed that, but it seemed like it needed stated again. I'll take it as read from now on.

I read that Spurs have signed a deal with 'Cinch' for sleeve sponsorship, it's being reported they're getting close to £10 million a season for this. Maybe we could approach Spurs and ask them if they'll take over all sponsorship negotiations for the SPFL from now on.

@DPDPDPDP your youth is noted. Apologies for singling you out, I obviously meant it but I feel bad about it now.

[Levin]

Cinch have paid £6.5m to ECB for a multi-year headline sponsorship of men's and women's teams.

[AMMS]

I was at the game yesterday.

On one hand it's great to see a traditional club like Queens Park progressing. On the other hand, it's being done on the basis of them abandoning their traditions. There's no way that Simon Murray is a League One player and their squad overall is really strong. Could they do that without the money they've made selling Hampden to the SFA? The absolutely horsed us yesterday. 3-0 and did it easily. You want to see ambitious clubs doing well but part of me hates to see them essentially buying their progression. Same with Kelty and Hurlford/Darvel in the old juniors. A few clubs are starting to look at building for the future. You'd expect Talbot to progress and Pollok are looking at improving facilities at Newlandsfield. Clubs doing it in the right way.

Maybe it's a bit of jealousy in there too. Most lower league fans would secretly love to see our clubs with stronger finances and things improving across the board. But you wonder where the likes of Kelty and Queens Park will be 10 years down the line?

Does any club not buy their progression? I accept occasionally clubs punch above their weight but it's usually only for a few seasons at most. I mean I know money isn't a guarantee of success, but it kind of is, isn't it? Is your concern that Kelty and QP are spending money they don't have or can't sustain?

For most of their recent history Queens Park relied on Hampden as a big lure for players. Once that was taken from them how were they supposed to survive? An amateur club playing out of a small ground on Glasgow's southside is going to struggle to compete against Junior sides far less senior ones. It may well yet end in tears but I kind of admire their ambition. With the creation of the Lowland Leagues there's a kind feeling that it's the wild west or a goldrush, that any side can climb the leagues. There are some established and well run clubs in the pyramid now so I can understand why club's like Queens Park might be nervous of hanging around in the second division for too long.
You've articulated the challenges and pressures of running a club in the Scottish leagues well in the past, so your take on this is interesting.

[AMMS]

Cinch have paid £6.5m to ECB for a multi-year headline sponsorship of men's and women's teams.

Forgive me, who are ECB?

[Levin]

Sorry AMMS the English Cricket Board. It's a deal to be the main shirt sponsor for the national team.

[BallochSonsFan]

Does any club not buy their progression? I accept occasionally clubs punch above their weight but it's usually only for a few seasons at most. I mean I know money isn't a guarantee of success, but it kind of is, isn't it? Is your concern that Kelty and QP are spending money they don't have or can't sustain?

For most of their recent history Queens Park relied on Hampden as a big lure for players. Once that was taken from them how were they supposed to survive? An amateur club playing out of a small ground on Glasgow's southside is going to struggle to compete against Junior sides far less senior ones. It may well yet end in tears but I kind of admire their ambition. With the creation of the Lowland Leagues there's a kind feeling that it's the wild west or a goldrush, that any side can climb the leagues. There are some established and well run clubs in the pyramid now so I can understand why club's like Queens Park might be nervous of hanging around in the second division for too long.
You've articulated the challenges and pressures of running a club in the Scottish leagues well in the past, so your take on this is interesting.

I don't think St Johnstone bought their success last year. Whether or not it's progression is debatable, but over the course of a couple of seasons then I do think that you can progress on the back of a good manager and some sensible signings. Maintaining that when the best players are always likely to leave your side is a problem and if St Johnstone lost the likes of Ali McCann and maybe Jason Kerr, could they replace them?

Queens Park are spending the kind of money that they can't generate. Maybe they'll attract enough fans through their success and greater exposure to pack Lesser Hampden when it's finished and be a stable Championship side? I'm not convinced. Same that there's a limit on how far Kelty can progress without essentially relying on the owner's money. They're not going to take fans away from the other Fife clubs. Hurlford in the Juniors was another example. Hurlford is tiny and had a fraction of the fans that Talbot or Pollok have. But they were able to bring in guys like Stewart Kean when he was still a viable senior player.

I want Scottish club football to improve, but is it really improvement to see Queens Park or Kelty spending unsustainable amounts of money to gain promotion for a few seasons? If they can't attract new fans then ultimately the money will run out. Thats a sure fire ticket to relegation. In the mean time it could see those clubs damaged in the long term. For me progression has to be sustainable and Wullie Haughey throwing money at Queens Park along with the Hampden sale funds isnt sustainable growth. Whats left when the money runs out?

[Uncle Ethan]

Postecoglou is the wrong choice. His teams play great football, eventually, but he won't have any time in this gig. His also has completely the wrong personality to buy himself any time.

This has aged well.

[CY_Boaby]

I'd be quite happy if the Ange bandwagon came unstuck this Saturday, but can't see it happening. Saints won there last season for the first time in 31 years, but looks like normal service has resumed and I'll probably have to wait until I'm well into my 70s before it happens again.

[jdsx]

You couldn't make this up...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58283351

[CY_Boaby]

It's hard to believe this was an honest mistake - maybe the SPFL think any publicity is good publicity.

Looking at the photo of the Hearts Championship flag, why is Cinch plastered right in the middle of it taking pride of place? They weren't the sponsor last season and it certainly wasn't called the Cinch Championship. The SPFL might have to re-issue these flags anyway as Rangers have struck the first blow in their stand-off with the SPFL over the sponsorship deal.

Meanwhile we have the first Old Firm game to all look forward to this Sunday. The nastiness has already started with the racist abuse of Celtic's Kyogo Furuhashi, but good to see Rangers taking quick and decisive action by banning the culprits indefinitely. I wonder if these wankers actually gave a damn when Glen Kamara was racially abused by that Slavia Prague player last season?

[ursus arctos]

I think you might be on to something