Mr Batali, yesterday.
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The Downfall of Harvey Weinstein?
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Originally posted by WOM View PostI think if you were casting dozens of 'large' roles and heard that one or two people on your long list were 'pains in the ass' from a respected, long-career producer, you wouldn't think too hard about striking them off. I hear 'hearsay' evidence about people in my trade all the time. It's called your reputation, and it usually precedes you.
I can't imagine that peter jackson would have thought twice about it. i'm not sure that any of us would under the circumstances. And even if you were only as wary of weinstein as you should be of any hollywood producer, you're going to just think These actresses are on my producer's enemies list for some reason. This is ultimately his movie, I can hire literally anyone else for this role, so the path of least resistance is just pick someone else. isn't giving psychopaths untrammeled power over vulnerable people just the best!
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https://mobile.twitter.com/hels/stat...03193992687616
Not the biggest shock in the world that the “edgy” post post ironic bastards at Vice turn out to be non ironically rapey racist shitheels.
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Yeah, that was almost as surprising as discovering that the people Miss America objectify and sexualise women.
I mean, whodathunk, eh?
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Harrowing but important piece of journalism from NPR on the abuse faced by those with intellectual disabilities https://www.npr.org/2018/01/08/57022..._medium=socialLast edited by ad hoc; 08-01-2018, 14:35.
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Well, yeah, Liam Neeson. There will be false allegations, and there will be disproportionate reactions to what some people would call minor incidents. There will be occasions when innocuous behaviour will be described as inappropriate or worse. But in the scheme of the mountain of shit accumulated by patriarchal exploitation of women, sexual and otherwise, a man invoking the language of witchhunts is at best unhelpful and, more accurately, contributing to the problem. As for Catherine Deneuve, she's a woman and I don't presume to dictate to women how to feel about these things. But Neeson should think things over a bit.
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I find myself in a slight dilemma and I am throwing it out here to try and get some outside opinions. The world I work in is very female dominated (in terms of numbers) but fairly male dominated in terms of "celebrity" such as it is. In recent years a number of initiatives have started to try and redress the " famous plenary speaker is a man" situation somewhat, and happily things are changing.
In the last few weeks a new push has started, founded on the MeToo movement but specific to our little professional (and not so professional) world. So far so good. I strongly suspect that there is a lot of stuff that goes down (many of us teach adults, and that teacher student power dynamic is ripe for abuse it seems). However, the focus seems to have come to rest at the conference circuit and what goes on there. Now I am pretty familiar with this circuit as I tend to go to a fair number of ELT conferences in different parts of the world and I imagine (and in some cases I know) that a fair amount of "away from home" type activity goes on at these things, but until this all started up recently I had - perhaps naively - assumed that the worst that happened was adultery.
Obviously if there is sexual abuse and sexual harassment happening it needs to be addressed and needs to be stopped. I hope that goes without saying. However, it has become clear that in the last week or so the focus has fixed on one particular individual. He hasn't been named, but I think we all know who it is. Here, though is where my dilemma starts. I know this guy. We're not exactly friends but we see each other from time to time and get on pretty well. He is "famous" as much as anyone is famous in ELT, and is often the main invited guest speaker at conferences. His name sells conferences. He's divorced, and must be in his early 60s. And most times I see him in the conference bar late in the evening he tends to be deep in heavy-eye-contact conversation with a woman significantly younger than him. Without actual evidence but with a fair degree of certainty, I and pretty much everyone else assumes he ends up sleeping with a lot of these women.
Now, nobody has ever suggested that these trysts are anything other than consensual. I am as certain as it is possible to be that they are. He's a nice bloke, he's sensitive and a good listener, and I don;t doubt for a moment that this is all entirely mutual. He doesn't wield any power - he is freelance like I am, and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone. What he has is celebrity, and aside from his personality, that's all.
But this new MeToo style movement has become - it seems to me- fixated on him, and it feels, honestly, like a bit of a witch hunt. I've spent the past couple of days reading definitions and trying to find out whether what he does fits into any definitions of sexual abuse (because previously I hadn't considered it so, but I at least want to educate myself). Reading the wikipedia page on sexual harassment, I can sort of find a way to make his behaviour fit the definition (not in a legal sense, but in a general sense). But the terms being bandied about are (to me) stronger than sexual harassment - there is talk of a "serial sexual abuser" and a "sexual predator".
I presume some of the women who sleep with him end up regretting that, and I presume some don't. Obviously I have no idea. But I'm struggling to find it in me to support the waves of (to me) overly strong condemnation. But at the same time, I want to support the movement and the drive to expose any forms of sexual harassment that exist. It feels like something that can and should be brought out into the open and addressed at a deep level. I know the person who has launched this pretty well and I know her intentions are very good. (And I have tried to talk with her about these concerns above, but I won't see her in person until April - and I feel I really need to sit down and have this conversation face to face with her, but fear that April may be too late). In short, I can't help feeling slightly uncomfortable with the way that this campaign is going, but I am also conscious of the fact that it is not me that is the target and not me who is being harassed (or indeed has any experience of sexual harassment)
Any advice? From any of you, but I'd particularly like to hear from the few women we have on the board.
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I sympathise with this dilemma. Otherwise, can't offer anything other than the observation that the fact that this man 'doesn't wield any power ..... and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone' may not be remotely relevant to the question of whether or not he is guilty of sexual harassment or worse.
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On the face of it, it doesn't seem like there's anything truly 'untoward' happening. He's simply a charming older man who talks the knickers off of younger women. Whatever you think of that, if he doesn't wield any power - real or imagined - then women (of course) need to be assumed to have agency to make their own decisions.
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- Aug 2008
- 25427
- The zero meridian
- Swansea, Gaziantepspor and the Zeugma Franchise
- Bahlsen Choco Leibniz Dark
I can offer no advice on this but it does appear to be drifting to the dirty old man side which makes me wonder if there's not something in it. I'm sure he has power, even if it is perceived rather than real.
When I first worked in Turkey there were lots of rumours flying around about the directors of studies at three of the branches of the language school I worked at, all were single foreign men in their late 50s. There were also rumours about the owner and his right hand man, again single men.
I thought at the time it was malicious gossip or just gossip but many years later one of them was convicted in the UK of child abuse. He had been working in Cairo for the BC and was apparently removed from the country to avoid a scandal after similar rumours appeared.
I'm not saying that your man has done anything wrong but there have been a number of high profile cases of ELT teachers who've been convicted of child abuse and have used their position to do so. Often, but not always, using their job as cover to move abroad and teach where child rights are not as strong and where a white western man is able to get away with this kind of abuse due to his position of power.
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Back when I has skin in the TEFL game, sleeping with students seemed fairly widespread (these were adult learners). Only went there once, got a horrorshow 7 year relationship for my troubles. Serving me right.
Teachers definitely have a weird power over their students, in terms of young teacher and TEFL “face” liaisons, there still seems some assymetry of power. Enough that it would be sensible for a man of a certain age to keep his dick in his pants.
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- Aug 2008
- 25427
- The zero meridian
- Swansea, Gaziantepspor and the Zeugma Franchise
- Bahlsen Choco Leibniz Dark
Originally posted by Lang Spoon View PostBack when I has skin in the TEFL game, sleeping with students seemed fairly widespread (these were adult learners). Only went there once, got a horrorshow 7 year relationship for my troubles. Serving me right.
Teachers definitely have a weird power over their students, in terms of young teacher and TEFL “face” liaisons, there still seems some assymetry of power. Enough that it would be sensible for a man of a certain age to keep his dick in his pants.
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- Mar 2008
- 9839
- Tyne 'n' Wear (emphasis on the 'n')
- Dundee Utd, Gladbach, Atleti, Napoli, New Orleans Saints, Elgin City
The teacher-student intimate relationship is now fairly widely treated as unacceptable, UCU has policy against and most colleges and unis in UK would have ‘to be avoided’ policies and discipline anyone not declaring such a relationship.
Ad hoc’s case is not that tho, unless we ascribe a power imbalance to ‘being a well known speaker’ (maybe we could).
Ms Felicity used to be a money advice worker and the tales of off-duty flings at their conferences etc were near legendary. So it’s not exactly uncommon ‘awayday’ behaviour, with drink taken and the nostalgia disco fired up.
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Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View PostI can offer no advice on this but it does appear to be drifting to the dirty old man side which makes me wonder if there's not something in it. I'm sure he has power, even if it is perceived rather than real.
I also can't see how "perceived" power is a factor, unless he pretends to have the power to exercise authority or influence in exchange for sex. If he is attractive to others because he is quite well-known in his field, or handsome, or eloquent, or charming, he is not really abusing power.
The case ad hoc describes seems to be one where there are elements of bandwagon-hopping and outrage machine involved, and perhaps a bit of over-scrupulousness. Maybe also a bit of old-fashioned jealousy at a guy who has a sex life some might envy?
Unless somebody comes forward and explains how the man somehow deprived women of their agency, the case may have the feel of a witchhhunt, or more likely of crying wolf. There's a danger that the unfounded claims of abuse will undermine allegations of genuine cases of abuse, giving rise to a relativism which will serve the abusers.
At the same time, if some men are going to be collateral damage in the struggle to root out sexist abuses and bring down patriarchy, then that must be so.
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Thanks all
Originally posted by jameswba View PostI sympathise with this dilemma. Otherwise, can't offer anything other than the observation that the fact that this man 'doesn't wield any power ..... and cannot either offer work to anyone, nor can he deny work to anyone' may not be remotely relevant to the question of whether or not he is guilty of sexual harassment or worse.
Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View PostI'm not saying that your man has done anything wrong but there have been a number of high profile cases of ELT teachers who've been convicted of child abuse and have used their position to do so. Often, but not always, using their job as cover to move abroad and teach where child rights are not as strong and where a white western man is able to get away with this kind of abuse due to his position of power.
Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View PostThis is pretty much my experience too. There's a massive power imbalance exploited by teachers, much of it unconsciously.
Originally posted by Felicity, I guess so View PostThe teacher-student intimate relationship is now fairly widely treated as unacceptable, UCU has policy against and most colleges and unis in UK would have ‘to be avoided’ policies and discipline anyone not declaring such a relationship.
Ad hoc’s case is not that tho, unless we ascribe a power imbalance to ‘being a well known speaker’ (maybe we could).
And yes, I am beginning to think that his status is a factor - it doesn't confer any direct power but for many of the women involved his celebrity is I am sure a factor. The women in question tend to be youngish, non-native speakers who may be attending their first conference, and I am quite sure his fame and status is a big factor. He doesn't end up with women who know him (and his reputation)
Originally posted by G-Man View PostThe case ad hoc describes seems to be one where there are elements of bandwagon-hopping and outrage machine involved, and perhaps a bit of over-scrupulousness. Maybe also a bit of old-fashioned jealousy at a guy who has a sex life some might envy?
Unless somebody comes forward and explains how the man somehow deprived women of their agency, the case may have the feel of a witchhhunt, or more likely of crying wolf. There's a danger that the unfounded claims of abuse will undermine allegations of genuine cases of abuse, giving rise to a relativism which will serve the abusers.
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Anyway, yesterday I did write a long email to the woman who has started this, outlining my slight disquiet, and concerns that this is going down the wrong path. She sort of allayed those fears slightly, though not entirely. She's made a website for people to submit stories of any sort of sexual abuse or bullying (of any sort), and I think she;s getting overwhelmed a bit sifting through some terrible stories and removing any possible identifiers from them for publication (and she is getting a lot about this bloke it seems). But the stories being posted are mostly about other incidents & other people. Including one absolutely appalling and shocking one from Brazil that I had to read 3 times to get my head around
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- Aug 2008
- 25427
- The zero meridian
- Swansea, Gaziantepspor and the Zeugma Franchise
- Bahlsen Choco Leibniz Dark
Originally posted by ad hoc View PostAnyway, yesterday I did write a long email to the woman who has started this, outlining my slight disquiet, and concerns that this is going down the wrong path. She sort of allayed those fears slightly, though not entirely. She's made a website for people to submit stories of any sort of sexual abuse or bullying (of any sort), and I think she;s getting overwhelmed a bit sifting through some terrible stories and removing any possible identifiers from them for publication (and she is getting a lot about this bloke it seems). But the stories being posted are mostly about other incidents & other people. Including one absolutely appalling and shocking one from Brazil that I had to read 3 times to get my head around
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Originally posted by G-Man View PostI'm not a great fan of the "dirty old man" trope, with its image of lecherous men in trenchcoats salivating at young women at bars and on beaches. Why should people of legal age not have inter-generational sex? Isnkt it ageist to attach a stigma to that?
From ad hoc's description it doesn't sound like this man is doing anything abusive and the Weinstein comparisons seem completely out of line; all the same, if it was my workplace I would be steering well clear of someone like that, because he sounds like a bit of a dick who uses his status to get women into bed, and I wouldn't expect him to treat women as equals in a professional context either even if unconsciously.Last edited by Fussbudget; 25-01-2018, 20:41.
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