The least promising opening of any comedy series

[Bored Of Education]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

wingco wrote: Seinfeld himself, as a character and his routines are the weakest thing in it. But Elaine, Kramer, George . . .!

That's a very good point actually. Not least those fucking suit jackets with jeans and white trainers. For what it is worth, I think that the best writing in Seinfeld came from David and Seinfeld was greatly the junior partner. Which is why CYE when it is funny is much funnier. However, there is something about CYE's style that jars with me. I am sure it isn't improvised but it comes across as if it is and, as such, just loses sharpness for me.

Also Andy Townsends Tactics Truck makes a good point about Friends jumping the shark somewhat but it is very hard to keep a series at high quality for that long, however many writers you have.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Bored of Education wrote:

Seinfeld himself, as a character and his routines are the weakest thing in it. But Elaine, Kramer, George . . .!

That's a very good point actually. Not least those fucking suit jackets with jeans and white trainers.

Black jeans no less!

Seinfeld was indeed the flatter, most annoying character on the show. While Larry David is not an actor either, he's got such a much better screen presence; he's a lot more naturally funny.

[Flynnie]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Selected Ambient Works 85-92 wrote:

The other thing is that it is a bit of an awful halfway house. it's a jewish show, with jewish characters, that has had to tone down the jewishness to escape the catskills, and grab the wider domestic market. So you get the preparedness to carry on the pointless conversations, or the bizarre fixation with discounts, but none of the self confidence to come out with something like This. I suspect that at the time of its launch it was all "like Annie Hall, then you'll love this" as it clung to an extra air of sophistication that it just really didn't have.

Only one of the four characters is Jewish. Elaine and George aren't, and with Kramer it's never stated one way or the other. (Michael Richards isn't Jewish.)

George isn't Jewish? Have you watched an episode with Estelle Costanza?

[Borracho]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Bored of Education wrote:

I really liked it when it was on. It was everything that Friends aspired to be and failed.

No, you are absolutely wrong there. Friends never aspired to make a whole cast of dislikable characters (if you met them in real life, like).

I meant in the sense of trying to be hilarious and sharp, and failing.

[Borracho]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Flynnie wrote:

The other thing is that it is a bit of an awful halfway house. it's a jewish show, with jewish characters, that has had to tone down the jewishness to escape the catskills, and grab the wider domestic market. So you get the preparedness to carry on the pointless conversations, or the bizarre fixation with discounts, but none of the self confidence to come out with something like This. I suspect that at the time of its launch it was all "like Annie Hall, then you'll love this" as it clung to an extra air of sophistication that it just really didn't have.

Only one of the four characters is Jewish. Elaine and George aren't, and with Kramer it's never stated one way or the other. (Michael Richards isn't Jewish.)

George isn't Jewish? Have you watched an episode with Estelle Costanza?

The clue may lie in the name.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Selected Ambient Works 85-92 wrote:

The other thing is that it is a bit of an awful halfway house. it's a jewish show, with jewish characters, that has had to tone down the jewishness to escape the catskills, and grab the wider domestic market. So you get the preparedness to carry on the pointless conversations, or the bizarre fixation with discounts, but none of the self confidence to come out with something like This. I suspect that at the time of its launch it was all "like Annie Hall, then you'll love this" as it clung to an extra air of sophistication that it just really didn't have.

Only one of the four characters is Jewish. Elaine and George aren't, and with Kramer it's never stated one way or the other. (Michael Richards isn't Jewish.)

George isn't Jewish? Have you watched an episode with Estelle Costanza?

The clue may lie in the name.

If I remember correctly his father is Italian and his mother is Jewish.

[Patrick Thistle]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

George most definitely is Jewish. Except for the episode where he converts to Latvian Orthodox.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

People who don't like Jerry Seinfeld should be disqualified from watching Seinfeld. He's integral to the show. If you don't believe me, try imagining any episode with Seinfeld replaced by Tim Allen or Ray Romano. Eugh.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

And the idea that Larry David is a funnier performer than Seinfeld has to work hard to not appear like Guardianista hipster contrariness. There's a reason why one of these guys was an enormously popular and feted stand up and one of them wasn't.

If you're unimpressed by Seinfeld's routines in the show, it may just be that stand-up doesn't work best in ten-second chunks.

[Patrick Thistle]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Just started watching my season 4 box set. The stand up in the first couple of episodes is better. Especially the orgasm bit.

Although it does all feel quite dated now. I guess it was filmed in the very early 90s so is over 20 years old.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Lucy Waterman wrote: And the idea that Larry David is a funnier performer than Seinfeld has to work hard to not appear like Guardianista hipster contrariness. There's a reason why one of these guys was an enormously popular and feted stand up and one of them wasn't.

If you're unimpressed by Seinfeld's routines in the show, it may just be that stand-up doesn't work best in ten-second chunks.

I'm the furthest thing you can imagine from a contrarian Guardianista hipster. Just watch an interview with David and an interview with Seinfeld and tell me who would you rather have a drink with.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Pat McGatt wrote:

And the idea that Larry David is a funnier performer than Seinfeld has to work hard to not appear like Guardianista hipster contrariness. There's a reason why one of these guys was an enormously popular and feted stand up and one of them wasn't.

If you're unimpressed by Seinfeld's routines in the show, it may just be that stand-up doesn't work best in ten-second chunks.

I'm the furthest thing you can imagine from a contrarian Guardianista hipster. Just watch an interview with David and an interview with Seinfeld and tell me who would you rather have a drink with.

Yeah, apologies for the tone of that! Excessively fight-spoily.

But I stand by the general thrust - and sociability isn't the be all and end all. I'd rather have a drink with John Bishop than Spike Milligan.

[Patrick Thistle]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

I think I'd prefer to have a drink with Seinfeld. I'd worry Larry David would turn on me.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Well, possibly. It's an act, though innit. You shouldn't expect comics to behave in real life the way they do onstage. If you went for a pint with Eddie Izzard, I don't think he'd give you two hours of sustained surrealism complete with callbacks. He'd probably just gas on about the Labour Party.

[Patrick Thistle]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

I wouldn't go for a drink with Eddie Izzard unless I had a time machine and could go back twenty years to when he was funny and his shows weren't just him saying 'Soooo, anyway,' five hundred times.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

I wasn't saying that larry david is a funnier peformer than jerry seinfeld. I'm saying something subtly different, and that is having watched a number of episodes of the show from a fairly blank slate that there are a number of things in my fridge that are funnier than jerry seinfeld, particularly in his show. I'll put it to you this way If jerry seinfeld was funny, then the stand up elements in his show wouldn't be so fucking terrible. It's not some sort of postmodern joke at the expense of seinfeld. those segments try to be good, but die on their arse. The title of this thread comes because the opening sequence of the pilot is so appalling that it is amazing that someone greenlit a second show.

where the comparison with larry david comes in is I was saying that when it comes to comedy of embarrassment, the jerry seinfeld character in his show is just a flat two dimensional dickhead, faffing around in his white socks and lame hair, being marginally less of a loser than that george character, and nearly drowning in his own self regard.

The larry david character in curb your enthusiasm show on the other hand is a six dimensional social monster. in terms of technical sophistication or thought, It's like the diference between Steamboat willie and Avatar.

Some of that is down to seinfeld being a 95 episode a series, ground out for mainstream show, and CYE being a hbo show. Some of it is just down to seinfeld not being very good, and jerry seinfeld not being very good in particular.

That aside having watched a couple of more episodes of the show, I can't help feeling that if more of you were watching the show for the first time now you wouldn't think it was much good either. it is of its time, and its novelty at the time doesn't mask that it's rarely funny, and frequently not funny at all.

having characters with no redeeming factors who never learn or never develop might have been innovative in a saccharine world where family ties or friends existed. However no growth is a thin premise to stretch a couple of hundred episodes out on and also it kind of resembles the script writing philosophy underpinning eastenders.

anyway jerry seinfeld gives me hives.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: having characters with no redeeming factors who never learn or never develop might have been innovative in a saccharine world where family ties or friends existed. However no growth is a thin premise to stretch a couple of hundred episodes out on and also it kind of resembles the script writing philosophy underpinning eastenders.

As with Curb Your Enthusiasm, the whole point of the show is to highlight everyday pettiness, and to do so in a way that pettiness is petty enough not to become cuntiness, which would put the viewers off the characters altogether.

[Freestyling buck wilding Stijn Stijnen]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

That, and scenes like this:

"Here's to feeling good, all the time!"

[Jimski]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

I've never seen Seinfeld, but I'm not sure that preferring Curb would be considered that unusual, would it? It was definitely very very highly rated at the time, Curb. I loved its first few series, though it started to fall off in quality and I gave up on it around series 5 or so.

I rather suspect Seinfeld had a laugh track, which these days makes something virtually unwatchable for me, so won't be bothering to try it now.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Jimski wrote:
I rather suspect Seinfeld had a laugh track, which these days makes something virtually unwatchable for me, so won't be bothering to try it now.

That's a real shame. I don't know what I'd do without Peter Cook, Fawlty Towers, Father Ted or Partridge.

[Sam]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Yeah, it might be something that would be considered a bit naff if a 2014 series did it, but not watching an older show because it's got one seems a little odd.

Pat McGatt wrote:

having characters with no redeeming factors who never learn or never develop might have been innovative in a saccharine world where family ties or friends existed. However no growth is a thin premise to stretch a couple of hundred episodes out on and also it kind of resembles the script writing philosophy underpinning eastenders.

As with Curb Your Enthusiasm, the whole point of the show is to highlight everyday pettiness, and to do so in a way that pettiness is petty enough not to become cuntiness, which would put the viewers off the characters altogether.

That's also a very good description of another OTF favourite, Arrested Development. Characters not growing up during the course of a run doesn't have to mean a bad show, surely.

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Sam wrote: Yeah, it might be something that would be considered a bit naff if a 2014 series did it, but not watching an older show because it's got one seems a little odd.

I don't know if it's actually naff, or just a passing critical fad. The most successful sitcoms on both sides of the Atlantic still have audience laughter. And given that watching something surrounded by the audible laughter of others has been thought an enjoyable experience for several thousand years, I'm not sure it's dead yet.

Though given I'm in the middle of recording an audience sitcom for radio, I may be biased...

[Jimski]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Lucy Waterman wrote:

I rather suspect Seinfeld had a laugh track, which these days makes something virtually unwatchable for me, so won't be bothering to try it now.

That's a real shame. I don't know what I'd do without Peter Cook, Fawlty Towers, Father Ted or Partridge.

I agree that it is a shame. But I've become very sensitised to it by around 15 years of most things not having one. I found it very obtrusive when I tried to re-watch Blackadder a few years ago. Though I have to admit I didn't find it particularly spoiling my enjoyment of Fawlty Towers. Not sure what the difference was there.

The US "canned laughter" is even more obtrusive than the UK "studio audience" approach, though, I find.

[Jimski]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Lucy Waterman wrote: And given that watching something surrounded by the audible laughter of others has been thought an enjoyable experience for several thousand years, I'm not sure it's dead yet.

It may well just be a fad. But I'm still not sure that watching something surrounded by actual real people laughing is really analogous to watching something while hearing people you can't see laughing.

(Though I suspect it was probably first brought in to try to mirror the cinema experience of mutual laughter. I wonder if thus one of the reasons for TV dropping the laughter was because so many people are now used to watching comedy films - sans laughter tracks - on DVD at home.)

[Lucy Waterman]

The least promising opening of any comedy series

Jimski wrote:
The US "canned laughter" is even more obtrusive than the UK "studio audience" approach, though, I find.

You only really get canned laughter on cheap kids sitcoms. US prime time sitcoms have studio audiences.

That's particularly noticeable on Seinfeld, in bits where the majority of the audience are tittering uncomfortably but Larry David is laughing loudly and hoarsely right next to the audience mikes.