Received wisdom on 'bad' films

[Stumpy Pepys]

A few films off the top of my head that are generally considered to be turkeys or expensive disasters:

Heaven's Gate
Waterworld
Cleopatra
Ishtar
Cutthroat Island

Now, the received wisdom on films like these are trotted out with tedious regularity (and there's a few more you can add to the list). But have people ever seen the films they drop into discussions? I haven't seen any of the films I've listed. Not one. Has anyone on the board?

Apparently Heaven's Gate (or at least the director's cut of it) is a decent film. And quite a few people think Waterworld was okay.

And Plan 9 from Outer Space is routinely trotted out as the worst film ever, also probably by people who have never seen it. But I'll happily sit through a screening of Plan 9, because -- in spite of it's obvious (often ludicrous) faults -- the one thing it certainly isn't is boring. I'd much rather sit through Plan 9 than some knuckle-chewingly tedious cobblers like, I don't know ... The Squid and the Whale.

[blameless]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I haven't seen Ishtar as it was always difficult to get hold of in the UK, and I'm never going to watch Cutthroat Island as Geena Davis really, really gets on my nerves.

I've seen Waterworld - it's nothing amazing (it's actually quite dull), but it's also far from being the worst movie I've ever seen.

I think a lot of its status as "all-time turkey" is due to the fact that Kevin Costner had previously made several high-earning pictures in a row - Untouchables, Field of Dreams, Dances With Wolves, Robin Hood (crap but made lots of money) and The Bodyguard, so when he finally made an expensive duffer the criticism was especially fierce.

As I've mentioned on here before, my favourite "bad" film is Bonfire of the Vanities - universally panned by the critics at the time of its release, and a huge box-office flop, but I like it as a film and there are a couple of moments of genuine brilliance in it.

[Wyatt Earp]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I think Baron Munchhausen has some real strengths.

[Stumpy Pepys]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

As I've mentioned on here before, my favourite "bad" film is Bonfire of the Vanities - universally panned by the critics at the time of its release, and a huge box-office flop, but I like it as a film and there are a couple of moments of genuine brilliance in it.

Yeah, it was on okay film. I think Tom Hanks was miscast, but there were some good things about it.

[Ginger Yellow]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Waterworld is perfectly OK. It's got the same annoying Costner-is-the-Messiah vibe that all his films from that era did, but as a brainless blockbuster it's passable.

[Sean of the Shed]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I've seen all of those except Ishtar, though some are more memorable that others. I agree that Waterworld wasn't as bad as the pannings made it out to be.
Worst than all of these films though, is the self-indugent scientologist shit that was Battlefield Earth.

[Guest]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

It's not easy to pick the worst bad films, because there are so so many of them; you're looking for really famous expensive splashy big budget bad films I guess rather than run of the mill Existenz type bad films? Or even things like Knowing?

Waterworld, I was just bored, really. See also The Postman.

[Er Liquidatore]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

The Bonfire of the Vanities was a truly appalling film, especially considering how amazing the book is.

[Incandenza]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Heaven's Gate has undergone quite a critical reappraisal. Besides, most of the bad publicity it received was for going over budget and ruining United Artists. After it was released, the highly influential Los Angeles cable movie station the Z Channel aired Cimino's original cut. This is where the term "director's cut" originated.

I think now it's become seen as a misunderstood film and it has a lot of admirers.

All that said, I haven't seen it.

The people that say that Plan 9 is the worst movie ever haven't seen any of Coleman Francis' movies. The three he directed--The Beast of Yucca Flats, The Skydivers, and Red Zone Cuba--were all shown on Mystery Science Theater 3000, and they are far more inept than anything Ed Wood made.

[Tony C]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

The baggage that comes along with 'Heaven's Gate' is inevitably reviewed rather than the film. As Inca said, it ruined a studio due to Cimino going way over time and over budget and being over-indulged as a result of his success with 'Deerhunter'. As aesthetically good and popular as 'Deerhunter' was, it still was no 'ET' commercially and UA were effectively throwing money at Cimino that they didn't have.

'Heaven's Gate' is also rather a slow-paced, dialogue-heavy piece so the stock criticism of 'self-indulgence' was never far from the surface.

So before anyone had seen a single frame, 'Heaven's Gate' was the work of a spoiled, self-indulgent brat who happily sold a studio and its workers down the river in pursuing his self-centred and almost wilfully uncommercial ambition. The critics were at it like dogs to a bone.

Having said that, it's not great.

[Max Payne]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I love Starship Troopers, but most people roll their eyes when I say that.

[Guest]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Really? I think it's generally acknowledged as very good.

[Mumpo]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Showgirls is the real Verhoeven stinker, isn't it?

Just looking at his IMDB entry, I see that it was the last 'big budget' feature he directed.

[Ginger Yellow]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Yeah, Starship Troopers is excellent, but Showgirls is probably the worst film I've seen.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Ishtar is warren beatty and dustin hoffman isn't it? I saw that as a kid, and it's just one of those really unadventurous dull mainstream 1980's kind of throwbacks to the road movies or something. It didn't impress me as an 8 year old. I'm impressed that it cost so much.

Waterworld is just fucking dull. I watched the last three quarters of an hour of field of dreams, and it's a festering pile of sewage. Real 100% straight down the line sentimental bollocks. They should have taken a stand and publicly tortured all of those involved.

The Problem with bonfire of the vanities is that everyone is hopelessly miscast (with the exception of melanie griffith) The fey alcoholic english journalist is played by Bruce fucking willis for fuck sake, He should be the weight lifting lawyer, who was played by a piece of wet lettuce.

[erwin]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I zapped into The Avengers on cable this morning and couldn't bear it for more than five minutes. I think that got a panning at the time, didn't it? Was it deserved?

From the bit I saw, Ralph Fiennes is much too angsty for Steed, and although I love Uma Thurmann, she's not cool enough for Mrs Peel. (In both cases, the shadows of Patrick MacNee and Diana Rigg loom over both characters). And Sean Connery as a baddy ... come on!

Though I've never seen the whole film, it must be said.

[San Bernardhinault]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

I tried watching Showgirls - and I can watch some astonishing dross - and it was almost unwatchable. Utterly, terribly awful. It might genuinely be a contender for worst film of all time. It's certainly up there with Truly, Madly, Deeply, Miss Congeniality II and Solaris.

[beak]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Max Payne wrote:

I love Starship Troopers, but most people roll their eyes when I say that.

I find I get a similar reaction when I mention Robocop.

[delicatemoth]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Solaris is a very good film, and I thought it was critically well-liked too, except by Halliwell.

I remember really enjoying Myra Breckenridge, then finding out it had been roundly panned.

[Tony C]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

erwin wrote:
[quote]I zapped into The Avengers on cable this morning and couldn't bear it for more than five minutes. I think that got a panning at the time, didn't it? Was it deserved?

Funnily enough, right up there in my own 'worst of' list in another mess that a studio made of updating a great piece of 60's British t.v. - namely the big steaming mess that was Val Kilmer's 'The Saint'.

[Sean of the Shed]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Staying around the theme of 60s remakes, there's the Pink Panther films reworked by Steve Martin. They lack any of the charm, humour and quality of the originals, and no amount of big stars and comedy legends could rescue them. Also, not content with foisting one of these awful cringe-worthy groan-fests upon us, Martin decided we needed a sequel. Not content with exhuming Sellers and dry-bumming his decayed corpse, he then flips it over and fucks him in the mouth as well.

[Vicarious Thrillseeker]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Sean of the Shed wrote:

Not content with exhuming Sellers and dry-bumming his decayed corpse, he then flips it over and fucks him in the mouth as well.

I'd like to borrow that at some time, but I'm not sure exactly when I could use it.

Apropos the thread title, I distinctly remember trying to gouge out my eyes with a shit-encrusted spoon while watching 'Boxing Helena', although I quite enjoyed 'Pluto Nash'.

[G-Man]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

The movies in the opening post were all big budget jobs that were hyped before their release. So they are the standard bearers for shitness without having to be really, really shit.

Ishtar played on a flight I was on. It certainly did not make time, erm, fly by. But it isn't the first movie that springs to mind when I think of bad movies.

Bonfire Of The Vanities was OK, but, as TMK said, totally miscast. And directed by the wrong man.

Showgirls was rank, though I thought Gina Gershon was quite good in it (or maybe I was just perving after her).

[Wyatt Earp]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

dogbeak wrote:

I find I get a similar reaction when I mention Robocop.

Really? Robocop's a great film.

[De Geas Clean Linen]

Received wisdom on 'bad' films

Robocop is immense and I would not sell my Criterion edition of the film for love nor money.

Anyway, I know of a lot of film purists who only buy DVDs of movies that have won Oscars or are widely acknowledged as being great. I have over 200 DVDs myself and have quite a few 'bad' movies in my library...but I like them, so its money well spent as far as I'm concerned.

One such film is Leviathan. A blatant 'Alien' rip-off set on a mining station at the bottom of the Atlantic. It goes to bollocks in the last twenty minutes but the first hour or so is pretty good.

Poltergeist II is another. I liked it, I thought Kane was brilliant and brought an extra dimension to it all. It is spoiled by a duff ending, however.

Poltergeist III is another I bought. Not a patch on the previous two but it has some really cool moments and worth a watch.

I'm watching G.I. Joe tonight and I have a feeling that I will enjoy that too despite the fact that it was bashed upon its theatrical release.