Graphic Novels

[Reed John]

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Why are you blaming me?

I agree that's probably the problem with the film.

This, apparently, looks like Frank Miller trying to turn The Spirit into another Sin City story. It's very sad because by all accounts, Frank Miller loved Will Eisner as a good friend and mentor. I don't think he's trying to butcher it, but apparently he did (I don't know. I haven't seen it.) Just like I don't think George Lucas meant to ruin the Star Wars series but he did.

It's also sad because Frank Miller did some remarkable comics in the 1980s but nothing I've read by him recently is any good. His sequel to Dark Knight was ridiculous as is his All-Star Batman and Robin. He seems to have lost all grasp of nuance with characters and has turned them into dumb parodies of 1950s noir and Dirty Harry (which, by the way, is a pretty stupid movie if you watch it now).

I thought Sin City was good, but that was Frank Miller doing what Frank Miller is good at. Increasingly, it looks like that's all he is good at. 300 was also an adaptation of a Frank Miller book. I really liked that book but didn't like the movie. In trying to look exactly like Frank Miller's book, it totally lost what made the book work and ended up looking like a Marine Corps recruiting ad.

If I'm not mistaken, Octopus never shows his face in The Spirit comics, but he's not only in the film, he's in the trailer, played by Samuel "made millions just by saying motherfucker repeatedly" Jackson. Miller decision to drop Ebony White from the story because he felt he was such a racist stereotype. I guess that's admirable, but it doesn't help to cast Octopus as another kind of racial stereotype.

[jason voorhees]

Graphic Novels

Sin City was all Robert Rodriguez. Look at the edits and the way he cut the scene with Marv preparing for the final battle with Frodo. One of the greatest marriages of comics and film that there ever was.

I never understood The Spirit, never gave a shit about, and will continue to not give a shit about it.

The thing with Frank Miller is a lot of his genius work was at a time when having cokehead ex-girlfriends who sell you out to your enemy for a hit (Daredevil's Born Again,) having Batman's last ride as a badass who hangs people out of windows to make them talk (DK Returns,) or a film noir nightmare (Sin City) was absolutely unthinkable and unheard of. It was absolutely revolutionary, but really was a one-trick pony.

It's like ECW wrestling. For almost two decades, the WWF conquered wrestling by having cartoon characters battle each other. All of a sudden, this small independent federation started running shows out of a small bingo hall and rebelled against that kiddie version of pro wrestling by having people bleed, go through flaming tables, and getting slammed on thumbtacks and having angles about friends getting their tagteam partner's girlfriend pregnant. Revolutionary once, but definitely losing its magic.

It's funny going through my comics from the 80s during my move. Especially funny is seeing the independent titles (Silver Wolf Comics and their "Grips", or this one about some "Serious Man With A Serious Plan" - and the guy just gets hassled with the police during issue 1. Yeah, that'll have me rushing to the comic store for issue 2.) It was just funny to laugh at the dreams of these people. I mean we all know how the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles saga ended, and there's even the Fish Police (who did have a show on CBS for an episode) and The Tick (who did have a Fox show) Because from there the independent scene drops like a concrete hot-air balloon.

It's also funny seeing how many #1s I had. Titles like "Legionaires Three", a DC title that I clearly remember buying at Waldenbooks when I was 12 and thinking "I hope enough people like this shit to make me some cash loot, because I ain't readin' this shit !" Man, so many comics suck.

However, it's intriguing reading the early Swamp Things (I have the original 70s stuff,) and seeing how there was a lot of good 70s horror stuff.

As you were.

[jason voorhees]

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Didn't read the thread before posting, funny to see Usagi Yojimbo and the f'd up women of Matt Murdoch.

[Errorist Sympathiser]

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@Reed

I wasn't blaming you specifically, more anyone who thinks Frank Miller is worth dropping any cash on, other than his Daredevil work, (very) early Sin City, and (to a lesser extent) Dark Knight. He's treated as one of comics' genii when he's nothing more than a deranged, right wing loon, producing half-baked comics with an "extreme" edge. "OMGZ! Batman said 'godamn!'!!!" All-Star Batman & Robin is a nadir in a career latterly filled with lowlights.

In a world where the term "unfilmable" is thrown about like confetti, and usually as a replacement for "unusual". The Spirit really is. Not because the images couldn't translate but because the format of the strip is so unusual. Six-page stories, self-contained, and with a style that constantly toys with, and sometimes reivents, the medium. A Spirit film would be 20 chapters, each using innovative techniques that play with the style of film and the manner of storytelling. And he'd wear a blue suit, not a black one.

[Reed John]

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I don't agree entirely. I agree he's done a lot of shit, but Miller also wrote (but didn't draw) Batman: Year One, which I think is even better than The Dark Knight Returns and is one of my favorite Batman stories ever (and I've read an ungodly amount of Batman in my life). He really seemed to "get" Batman in that story in a way that he certainly doesn't anymore. A lot of writers don't. Miller doesn't get Superman either. He has open contempt for the character, but he just doesn't understand what Superman is all about or what he could be all about in the right hands.

Ronin was also pretty cool. But that was a long time ago. I also have a collection of Miller's very early work (just art, not writing) on Spider-Man which was, for the time, very good. But that's like 30 years old now.

Miller explains that The Spirit wore a blue suit in the comics because that was one of the only colors that would work with the newsprint, but that black is really more appropriate in his opinion. He's partially right. So much of what we're accustomed to as the "look" of comics and superheroes specifically was dictated by the limitations of the cheap paper and printing process of the time. But I don't think black is right. That's Miller ramming Sin City into Eisner's work again, I think. A dark blue suit makes more sense. It seems like that's what Denny Colt would have worn in that era.

The Spirit would work better as animated series of shorts.

Have you seen any of Darwyn Cooke's Spirit stuff? It's pretty cool. I really dig Darwyn Cooke's work. He's very into the retro-1950s vibe. His series Justice League: The New Frontier is really cool and it spawned an animated movie which is also extremely cool.

[Jon]

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"The thing with Frank Miller is a lot of his genius work was at a time when having cokehead ex-girlfriends who sell you out to your enemy for a hit (Daredevil's Born Again,) having Batman's last ride as a badass who hangs people out of windows to make them talk (DK Returns,) or a film noir nightmare (Sin City) was absolutely unthinkable and unheard of. It was absolutely revolutionary, but really was a one-trick pony."

We've discussed on here more than once the decline of Frank Miller but I think you've hit the nail on the head with that paragraph there, jv.

I treasure those early Frank Miller Daredevil's and they are a real part of my youth but I doubt they would stand up to the more sophisticated stuff that is coming out now.

Just like I have fond memories of Hill Street Blues (which came out about the same time as Miller's Daredevil) but would it stand up to the best cop shows since then?

[Errorist Sympathiser]

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So Batman actually died today, not like the other month when he didn't really die, only got a bit wet and made everyone think he did. Final Crisis #6 was an okay read - probably the best issue so far, and it had that ending, yet everyone's talking about Obama. What a weird world. I guess you can't run two BATMAN DEAD headlines in as many months...

[Reed John]

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Thanks for spoiling that. I haven't read it yet.

I'll be really pissed if he's really dead (these characters rarely are). They can't kill Bruce Wayne. I won't tolerate that.

[Ginger Yellow]

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Better than retconning Spiderman like they always do.

[Errorist Sympathiser]

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Reed of the Valley People wrote:

Thanks for spoiling that. I haven't read it yet.

I'll be really pissed if he's really dead (these characters rarely are). They can't kill Bruce Wayne. I won't tolerate that.

GAH! Sorry! I kinda get used to everybody reading this kind of event stuff on the day it appears.

Anyway, it would be weird if he stayed dead because of the films and all that, but I guess they figure they're at a place where the people who watch the films don't read the comics, and the people who read the comics know better than to expect Hollywood to follow anything that happens on the 4-colour page.

Superman stayed dead, what, a year? And Captain America, it's been nearly two and no sign of him returning. So I figure there's at least a little while of no Bruce-Batman, although Morrison is returning to the title by the end of the year, by all accounts, and I can't see him wanting to write Grayson, Todd, or Drake in the cape, precious little sod that he is...

[Errorist Sympathiser]

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Ginger Yellow wrote:

Better than retconning Spiderman like they always do.

The relaunch of Spider-man has actually been one the best things to happen in the last year or so. It's been fantastic, with many more hits than misses in the 40 or so issues so far. Next week kicks off a big storyline and if you haven't been checking it out, you really should. Or just pick up the TPB of Brand New Day. You won't be sorry if you like Spider-man.

[Jon]

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I read the other week that they recently brought Bruce Wayne's father back to life. Any truth in this insane (but depressingly believable) rumour?

[Errorist Sympathiser]

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Jon wrote:

I read the other week that they recently brought Bruce Wayne's father back to life. Any truth in this insane (but depressingly believable) rumour?

Well, kinda. It turned out to be an actor that the wealthy doctor hired to impersonate him on occasion, as all wealthy doctors do, I'm led to believe. Simply, Grant Morrison has lost his shit.

[Lucia Lanigan]

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I've managed to download a pack of old Jodorowsky/Moebius/Janjetov comics. I'm a couple of issues into The Incal and it's amazing, I can see why it was such a big deal in Europe. Anyone else read it?

[Gangster Octopus]

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I bought my nephew Watchmen for Christmas. He's 13. Is this too young?

[Lucia Lanigan]

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One strand of the story concerns a rape and its effect down the years. It's brilliantly handled, but obviously unsettling too.

[matt j]

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I'd say 13 is pretty much the perfect age for Watchmen.

[Jon]

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"I've managed to download a pack of old Jodorowsky/Moebius/Janjetov comics. I'm a couple of issues into The Incal and it's amazing, I can see why it was such a big deal in Europe. Anyone else read it?"

Yes, but too long ago to remember much about it, I'm afraid Lucia. But I do remember reading a couple of blog articles last year that were quite interesting. Basically the Incal has been recoloured for the 'video-games generation.' Plus if you look at the French blog, you'll see they've covered up some of the naughty bits in the new version.

http://les-mangeurs-dimages.blogspot...s-ladronn.html

http://comicsenextincion.blogspot.co...versiones.html

I'd be interested to know which version you're reading.

[Brandenburger Toro]

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Graphic reviews.

[De Geas Clean Linen]

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I don't have many graphic novels but in the past two months I've bought:

Batman: Year One
The Dark Knight Returns
Civil War: The New Avengers
Civil War: Iron Man
The Death of Superman
Justice League: The Greatest Stories Ever Told

I'm really quite hooked.

The Dark Knight Returns is brilliant...

[Jon]

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Frank Miller at his best. Don't read the sequel though, unless you want to read Frank Miller at his worst.

Am currently re-reading all my Watchmen comics (yes it was a comic before it became a graphic novel) for the first time since they came out (1986) in preparation for a trip to the cinema to see the film. Superlative stuff.

[De Geas Clean Linen]

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Frank Miller at his best.

Yeah, you're not wrong there.

Its an awesome book. The artwork is exceptionally good as well.

I usually buy comics. I've been a collector since the early 90's and have too many to count. Its only recently that I've been getting into graphic novels and I have about thirteen now...

I'm trying to get my hands on Iron Man: Extremis which I hear is rather good...

[De Geas Clean Linen]

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CarnivorousVulgaris wrote:

Sir Fartle wrote:

I'm trying to get my hands on Iron Man: Extremis which I hear is rather good...

It's good. The artwork by Ari Granov (I think?) was done using computer illustration which gives everything a very strange, glossy, immaculate quality. It doesn't always work but the body horror segments are suitably convincing and grotesque.

Storywise it's engaging without being brilliant. Ellis pretty much admitted he did it just to collect a paycheck so there are times when you really feel as if he's simply phoning it in. Overall, well worth investigating but not a classic.

Yeah, there was a documentary on the Iron Man DVD which was dedicated solely to the comic books (past and present) and how they re-invented the character to an extent with 'Extremis'. There was also an interview with Granov and a little look at how he actually goes about drawing the books themselves...Fantastic documentary. All the gang were there...John Romita, Granov et al.

The Dark Reign story arc is also pretty good as Stark takes on Norman Osbourne...Issue #10 of The Invincible Iron Man was a real belter...can't wait to pick up the other issues...

[evilC]

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Jon wrote:

I treasure those early Frank Miller Daredevil's and they are a real part of my youth but I doubt they would stand up to the more sophisticated stuff that is coming out now.

Sorry to maybe derail things a little, but...

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Mid-period Bill Sienkiewicz was godlike ...before he and Simon Bisley mysteriously seemed to swap styles around the time of 'Big Numbers'.

As someone with no artistic talent whatsoever, I can only envy those super-talented bastards!

[Jon]

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Fartle - that documentary sounds great, will hunt it out.

I recently read the graphic novel, 'How to be an artist' by Eddie Campbell, which is an autobiography of his professional life in comics and as such deals quite a lot with the comics scene of the 80s and 90s.

Among many interesting tales, there was quite a bit about Big Numbers which, although I remember coming out, have never read.

It seems Big Numbers is the Beach Boys' 'Smile' album of the comics world. (Apologies if you all knew this before, I had no idea until reading about it in 'How to be an Artist.')

Sienkiewicz quit after issue 2 and Moore got Sienkiewicz's teenage assistant, Al Columbia, to finish it off but he quit too so issues 3 and 4 have never seen the light of day.

Until, that is, until about 3 days ago when issue 3 surfaced on the internet:

http://glycon.livejournal.com/11817.html