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    #26
    The twelve shit Smiths songs

    Sean - I think the point of that song is that there WASN'T a relationship - well, only in the narrator's mind.

    Rhino - I never said GiaC was in the same league as 'Asleep'. Clearly, it isn't. I was trying to make the point that it could be seen (not by me) as pandering to an image Morrissey thought he had to live up to.

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      #27
      The twelve shit Smiths songs

      but I'm a bit inarticulate
      Bah! You expressed perfectly what I would have liked to have said.

      Did Rhino include "Meat Is Murder"? A dirge with lyrics that lay on the message thicker than 12 layers of lard.

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        #28
        The twelve shit Smiths songs

        Taylor - brilliant stuff about "I Started Something I Couldn't Finish" (and I feel the same way about the quiffy cunts in the video). I was about to write a defence of it here, citing the epic, Candide-like, picaresque trip he's on and the brilliant sequitur/non-sequitur "Friday night it Outpatients/Who said I'd lied to her?", until I realised I was thinking of "Stop Me..."

        The urrr growl is quite good, mind. But the phrase "typical me, typical me" tells you everything about how much he was playing up to his persona by that stage. By the way, musically I think "I Started" is more of a Bowie/Ronson rip-off than Mick/Keef. Think "Cracked Actor".

        For me, I think "Hand That Rocks The Cradle" fails to avoid being boring, I'm afraid. Always used to skip it when listening to The Smiths. That is its crime.

        Re. what you said about "Half A Person"... the thing with all the songs on my list is that if they were the first/only thing(s) I'd heard by The Smiths, I'd have hated them and never bothered to investigate further. (That's nearly what did happen, actually, because my early impression of The Smiths was largely formed by "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" on ToTP, which is almost heinous enough to make my dozen. It took an interview in Smash Hits to make me decide to investigate further, and buy everything they'd released to that point.)

        As for "Vicar In A Tutu" and a genuine love of rockabilly or whatever, far better examples of that are "Shakespeare's Sister" and "Rusholme Ruffians". I'd put "Vicar" on the same level as "Death At One's Elbow". And I'm surprised to hear that you have any time for the lyrics, because I don't think you do for "Stripper Vicar" by Mansun, which is basically the same thing...

        See, I've got no love for English nostalgia, no love for George Formby or Alan Bennett or any of that crap, partly because I'm not English and partly because I just don't, so all that "Frankly Mr Shankly" bollocks has always left me cold.

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          #29
          The twelve shit Smiths songs

          Sean of the shed wrote:
          Alot of the twelve tracks listed are obviously just fillers to pad out albums, never meant for consideration as a single, which was something that should have been observed with GiaC.
          I was disappointed to see Hand that rocks the cradle among those listed.
          Personally I can't listen to Shoplifters of the world, it's a poorly contrived lyric and the music accompanying the track goes nowhere at all.
          Another annoying track is Last night I dreamt that somebody loved me. Morrisey just goes along with a tried and tested nobody loves me formula which had been done so much better on many other earlier tracks, including Unlovable.
          Going off tack slightly if anyone was to make a list of underrated Smiths tracks, then I would have to go with I know it's over, a gorgeous, melancholic song, the best song ever on the subject of not coping with the end of a relationship.
          Hah, "Shoplifters" is actually my very favourite Smiths song. I love the way that, for once, Morrissey doesn't spell out the narrative and allows you to fill in the gaps ("Alabaster crashes down... six months is a long time..."), and Marr's shuddering psych-metal chords and incongruous Brian May solo are astonishing. That is an underrated Smiths song.

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            #30
            The twelve shit Smiths songs

            Pants wrote:
            Sean - I think the point of that song is that there WASN'T a relationship - well, only in the narrator's mind.

            Rhino - I never said GiaC was in the same league as 'Asleep'. Clearly, it isn't. I was trying to make the point that it could be seen (not by me) as pandering to an image Morrissey thought he had to live up to.
            Only by an idiot.

            See, Morrissey paid too much attention to what idiots (the Steve Wright brigade) made of them. As Simon Reynolds wrote, they could actually have done with being even more miserable.

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              #31
              The twelve shit Smiths songs

              See, I've got no love for English nostalgia, no love for George Formby or Alan Bennett or any of that crap, partly because I'm not English and partly because I just don't, so all that "Frankly Mr Shankly" bollocks has always left me cold.
              Music Hall was dead since long before Morrissey was born though. Thing is though, it's influence is what defines British pop. Um, well that and folk music.

              It's only recently, the past twenty years that it's been thought of as something safe, anodyne and forgotten. It could be as hard, incendiary and vital as any art-form.

              And i'm not going to add 'in it's day' either. I fucking hate that expression Great art lasts or it's not worth a wank.

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                #32
                The twelve shit Smiths songs

                Well I totally agree with Reynolds on that. 'Miserable Lie' had everything that was everything great about them, I reckon.

                I totally agree with you about 'Shoplifters'.

                On 'Is It Really So Strange', I've always found that line near the end, "Why is the last mile the hardest mile?" extremely moving. Is that just me?

                Comment


                  #33
                  The twelve shit Smiths songs

                  Spearmint Rhino wrote:
                  Taylor - brilliant stuff about "I Started Something I Couldn't Finish" (and I feel the same way about the quiffy cunts in the video). I was about to write a defence of it here, citing the epic, Candide-like, picaresque trip he's on and the brilliant sequitur/non-sequitur "Friday night it Outpatients/Who said I'd lied to her?", until I realised I was thinking of "Stop Me..."
                  Ah wait, so was I, re the quiffy cunts. That's the video to "Stop Me...", isn't it? Or is it? Can't remember.

                  Spearmint Rhino wrote:
                  As for "Vicar In A Tutu" and a genuine love of rockabilly or whatever, far better examples of that are "Shakespeare's Sister" and "Rusholme Ruffians". I'd put "Vicar" on the same level as "Death At One's Elbow". And I'm surprised to hear that you have any time for the lyrics, because I don't think you do for "Stripper Vicar" by Mansun, which is basically the same thing...
                  Well, I like all Marr's rockabilly ones, really, even if they're not as good as proper rockabilly. It's like mellow rockabilly, an almost-original concept.

                  I can't remember how "Stripper Vicar" goes, but I can remember my response at the time, which was "this has no subtlety whatsoever, and is terribly forced". I think "Vicar In A Tutu" has genuine charm, because it's not just "LOL tranny vicar", it's a nicely-sketched portrait of English madness, full of nice details like "Rose collects the money in a canister" and the whole thing being narrated by someone who was only near the church in the first place because they were nicking the lead off the roof. I like that stuff; I'm not particularly impressed by the fact it's about a man of the cloth wearing an amusing item of clothing, or doing un-vicarly things generally, which I think was all I got from that Mansun track. You probably do have to have a soft spot for that "gentle / English / melancholic whimsy" thing to enjoy "Vicar In A Tutu", though. I mean, at least a little one. It'd sound as awful as "I got confused, I killed a nun" if you didn't - I can definitely see that.

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                    #34
                    The twelve shit Smiths songs

                    Pants wrote:
                    On 'Is It Really So Strange', I've always found that line near the end, "Why is the last mile the hardest mile?" extremely moving. Is that just me?
                    It works, yeah, but it's a "well known phrase or saying" - albeit a pretty archaic one. In terms of the imagination required, it's just like saying "many's a mickle tha' makes a muckle" or whatever the hell it is.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      The twelve shit Smiths songs

                      Um yeah, I agree with Reynolds there too.

                      Sorry, I went into rant mode a bit there. I've just got this theory that the current obsession and repulsion with nostalgia is the main thing that's holding us all back. Original things never come out of wanting to be original, they're a process of trial and error aren't they? Continuity and all that. This denial and rejection of the past, it's fatal, I reckon.

                      Um, that's got nothing to do with what Simon (P) just said, just something generally that winds me up.

                      I'm really enjoying the rest of this thread by the way. In many ways I reckon The Smiths late decline sort of mirrors the way the early 80's went from intense, imaginative, visionary statements to well, a whole heap of nothing, really. Which is what the best bands in the late 80's did, innit? make interesting shapes out of a whole heap of nothing.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        The twelve shit Smiths songs

                        Pretty much (MBV made the best ones).
                        they could actually have done with being even more miserable.
                        I totally agree. I was exactly the wrong age to get The Smiths (6 when they started, 10 when they split up) but the fans I encountered put me off for years. At first there were the Morrissey-fan kids who offered the only respite from U2 or G'n'R kids if you wanted to join a band when I was 14, and they got as far as feeling smug for having quiffs and/or divorced parents. But the assumption of "wit" was the part that stuck in my craw; they were just a bit slow. It took me years to realise there was more going on with the band than "self-publicising quasi-depressive with a cheeky twist"; I didn't really click with them until I hit my mid-20s.

                        But then, in my late 20s, I found myself working in a job where the other members of my team were all "Smiths fans" who used to go on about how funny the lyrics about pianos and rusty fucking spanners were, which they weren't. These were pretty right-wing, weird-about-gays people (and in one case, psychotically (verbally) misgoynist); god knows what it must be like trying to democratise intelligence and subtlety through pop music and surveying that shower. You'd have to move to Rome to get away from the cunts, take shelter in your ego.

                        'Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before' is the one I probably should hate but love. The straw-hat-and-cane lyrics can't scupper that wall of sound. Ronson or no Ronson, that's an amazing single (which someone's about to tell me was never a single) isn't it.

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                          #37
                          The twelve shit Smiths songs

                          It wasn't released as a single in the UK but it was in other countries. It was due to be released in the UK but they were told that, with the recent Hungerford massacre, the song's reference to "mass murder" meant it wouldn't get any airplay.

                          The video with all the Morrissey clones cycling aroung Salford was originally for "Stop Me..." but, as there was no lip-synching, it was used for "I Started Something..." instead.

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                            #38
                            The twelve shit Smiths songs

                            And another thing: I loved Bowie, Bolan and tha NY Dolls when I was 14, but those Morrissey/Smiths kids insisted they were shiny pop flibbertigibbets and refused to acknowledge that Moz loved them, and indeed covered their songs.

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                              #39
                              The twelve shit Smiths songs

                              Spearmint Rhino wrote:
                              Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                              I can't stand Asleep.
                              What the fuck? That is mental.

                              You're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a sorry sack of self-parodic shit like "Half A Person", giving it a load of high-falutin' theorising it scarcely deserves, and meanwhile you fail to appreciate one of The Smiths' genuinely untouchable songs?

                              Man, I sometimes feel like everyone other fan sees The Smiths as light Northern comedy, whereas to me they're as serious as it gets.
                              I'd argue I wasn't being too hi-falutin with Half A Person but you're right with Asleep, I haven't given it the benefit of the doubt at all. I don't really know why. It's probably something as basic and subjective as not liking the tune, and therefore not having the inclination to think about it too much. The opposite of Half A Person.

                              Anyone wants to persuade me about it, I'm all ears.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                There's a whole discussion to be had arising out of the bracketing of Alan Bennett with George Formby (ee, mother, get the tea on, me dander's up), but that would be for another thread I guess.

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                                  #41
                                  The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                  centrifugal wrote:
                                  Utter sacrilege, but I really love The Smiths, but really hate 'There Is A Light That Never Goes Out'.
                                  I'll go you one further, and confess to finding "How Soon is Now" really dull.

                                  There's easily a dozen Smiths songs I like less though, and I'll be back with a list when I've given it a bit more thought.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                    Thing is, all these songs are probably bad Smiths songs (ie in comparison to other Smiths songs) but they're still great songs.

                                    Well, that's what I think anyway.

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                                      #43
                                      The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                      I'll go you one further, and confess to finding "How Soon is Now" really dull.
                                      I am speechless.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                        dogbeak wrote:
                                        I'll go you one further, and confess to finding "How Soon is Now" really dull.
                                        Yeah, me too. I like the Smith, but prefer several songs on SR's original list to this. I'm prepared to led to the ducking stool and pelted with wet sponges by idignant Smiths fans, because I know it's up there in the canon, but to me, it just sounds like a dirge.

                                        I'm reluctant to contradict Taylor in a 'I am not worthy way', but I adore Big Mouth.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                          Why on Earth... wrote:
                                          There's a whole discussion to be had arising out of the bracketing of Alan Bennett with George Formby (ee, mother, get the tea on, me dander's up), but that would be for another thread I guess.
                                          Yeah, and "Vicar In A Tutu" is nothing like either of them - although it's clearly from a tradition of self-consciously provincial English blah-de-blah... more a camp Ealing comedy, maybe.

                                          Alan Bennett does get misrepresented a lot, although I think he's brought a lot of that on himself, in some ways. He does overdo the cup-of-tea-ooh-me-back stuff, even though it's about 1% of the point of his work.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                            I wasn't saying Alan Bennett and George Formby are the same thing, by the way. Although I would put them under the same broad umbrella of twee Northern Englishness, just like Alan Partridge did with 'feminists' like Esther Rantzen, Germaine Greer, "that lot".

                                            I fucking hate Ealing comedies as well.

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                                              #47
                                              The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                              I dunno, Bennett's stuff is mostly about death and failure - I can see why Morrissey is a big fan, because AB's writing is in many ways a slightly more highbrow, serious version of his own best work, complete with Northern/camp seasoning. Anyone who can see past the miniature whimsy of Morrissey's lyrics should really be able to dig Bennett to some degree, except that Bennett never had a Johnny Marr to smooth his passage (ooh, Mother).

                                              Anyway, this is why I don't spend more time reading / thinking about Alan Bennett. The overlap with George Formby, small as it is in the grand scheme of things, puts me off a bit too. As it does with Morrissey. Although to be fair, leavening gloom and deadly-seriousness with small details of everyday life is what most writers do, one way or another. I suppose the acceptability of that depends which details you choose to employ, and the extent to which those details make you think "oh, shut up".

                                              My jury's out on Ealing comedies - I like the really good ones, but the twee-er, "Titfield Thunderbolt" end of things does get my back up a bit.

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                                                #48
                                                The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                                I sense Pricey's gonna go off on one about Victoria Wood fairly soon.

                                                Anyway, to attempt a reprieve of another in SR's shitlist: Unlovable - in the context of the album on which I first heard it, The World Won't Listen, it works really well I think. It's nothing special, but it's simple yet effective staccato melody and its general down-the-line misery slot in well on side two of that album alongside songs like Asleep and one of the most under-rated Smiths songs, the glorious You Just Haven't Earned It Baby. Morrissey was always better at singing about lovelessness when he was giving the loveless a bit of a gentle kick up the arse, as he is there.

                                                Girlfriend in a Coma is rubbish though - indeed has a great band ever signed off with such a run of substandard singles: I started Something... and Last Night I Dreamt Someone Loved Me were even worse.

                                                And I'd applaud the odd potshot at the sacred cow that is How Soon is Now. It is great, but it's the inferior cousin of I Know It's Over.

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                                                  #49
                                                  The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                                  The main problem for How soon is now is the fact it has become a fallback song for any DJ or TV programme which feels obliged to include a Smiths song in it's 80s nostalgia golden hour type song, I also seem to remember a rather shit cover version being used as a theme song to some wanky teenage supernatural vampire type shitfest. The result of this is every time it's repeatedly played more and more people, including myself, just think "play something else for fucks sake". Which is a shame as it really is an awesome song, pretty much the zenith of Morrisey and Marrs writing.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    The twelve shit Smiths songs

                                                    It was the theme for something like Dawsons Creek.

                                                    Anyway, I can imagine valid resistance to How Soon Is Now only on E10's terms, that is, as an overexposed holy cow. I am tired of hearing it, but it is anything but dull — not in melody, not in vocals, not in arrangement, not in lyrics.

                                                    Of all the dull Smiths songs one might choose, dismissing the merits of How Soon Is Now strikes me as an act of vandalism.

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