Who?

[Eggchaser]

Who?

River Song is seriously annoying. She was OK in her first appearance but since then, God almighty, she winds me up something terrible.

[Ginger Yellow]

Who?

New Who has a pretty terrible record with two parters, is the problem. The only one I can think of that didn't turn crap in the second half was the one in the library. The return of the weeping angels wasn't a disaster, but nothing in the second lived up to the first episode's bit with Amy in the trailer with the monitor. Everything else - utter disaster.

[Mumpo]

Who?

World War Three? The Doctor Dances? The Family of Blood? I like Last of the Time Lords, too, but let's not open that can of worms. And if we're talking comparatively, The Poison Sky was every bit as good as The Sontaran Stratagem.

[Ginger Yellow]

Who?

I'll give you Family of Blood, which I forgot was a two-parter. But I thought both of the WW3 episodes were a bit rubbish, and The Doctor Dances just couldn't live up to The Empty Child. When they're not just throwing everything at the wall in an (almost inevitably awful) season finale, they always seem to put far too much into the first episode of a two-parter so the second either underwhelms or becomes a mess.

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

You have a point (although I'd dispute the Doctor Dances criticism), but that's always been teh way with Doctor Who. Doctor Who has always been about the first 25 minutes. Try and make a list of stories that are any bloody good, where the final episode is even close to being as good as the first, and it goes:

Caves of Androzani

Spearhead from Space (if one is feeling generous)

The Aztecs
The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve
Masque of Mandragora
The Visitation
Survival

Beyond that it's nearly always settled by a big bomb or by magic. The reason being that it's easy to create an impossible situation, but very difficult to get out of it in a dramatically and intellectually satisfying way.

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

Interestingly, I notice that four of those stories are (pseudo) historicals. Maybe they lend themselves to satisfying resolutions better than laser-riddled space operas.

[Mumpo]

Who?

Purves Grundy wrote:

You have a point (although I'd dispute the Doctor Dances criticism), but that's always been teh way with Doctor Who. Doctor Who has always been about the first 25 minutes. Try and make a list of stories that are any bloody good, where the final episode is even close to being as good as the first, and it goes:

Caves of Androzani

Spearhead from Space (if one is feeling generous)

The Aztecs
The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve
Masque of Mandragora
The Visitation
Survival

Beyond that it's nearly always settled by a big bomb or by magic. The reason being that it's easy to create an impossible situation, but very difficult to get out of it in a dramatically and intellectually satisfying way.

This. Practically identical, in fact, to the post I was hoping to make at some point today.

[Ginger Yellow]

Who?

I'm certainly not diputing that it was ever thus. I only said New Who because my knowledge of Old Who is very limited, so I didn't want to over-generalise.

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

Fair enough. I think it's about expectation management. Generally you have to think of the last episode of a Doctor Who story as being like the mountain of washing up you have to deal with after a really nice meal.

[Yoss]

Who?

Well I liked it, but then as noted previously I lose my critical faculties when Dr Who comes on.

Contrary to what somebody just said, the Library one was the one where I felt the second part was weakest, at least of Moffat's own two-parters.

And it's taken me such a monumental effort of willpower to avoid highlighting Phoebe's spoiler from a couple of pages back that I now have no energy left for the rest of the day.

[David Agnew]

Who?

Keep the willpower up Yoss.

As a tribute to Elisabeth Sladen, BBC4 are showing The Hand of Fear on the 9th and 10th May.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Who?

The 4-foot high robotic "hare" on this inane BBC game show that is on before Doctor Who is almost as disturbing as anything that has been on the show itself.

Certainly some of the things in the Sylvester McCoy years.

It's starting ...!

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Who?

Ah, clever. Very clever.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Who?

Well, okay, I'm lost now.

I haven't got a bloody clue what's going on here.

[Taylor]

Who?

One rewrite away from being brilliant. Maybe two.

Unfortunately, I suspect it's only going to make sense at the end of this series, pushing Doctor Who further towards the same "sod it, wait till the box set comes out" status as all those American shows I hear about but don't watch.

Enjoyed it more than last week's, though.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Who?

So please reassure me I'm not just being thick then, the whole "astronaut 'kills' future Doctor - little girl turns up in the astronaut suit - Amy Pond thinks she's pregnant then finds a picture of herself cradling a little girl - girl appears at the very end and apparently does the "Doctor regeneration" bit at the end - wasn't explained tonight, was it?

And I must admit, I didn't really understand what it was the Silence wanted, nor how the Doctor actually mananged to defeat them. He put something in the transmission of the moon landing that ensured everyone on earth was released from their "spell"?

This went right over my head. I was trying to keep half an eye on the Chelsea game, but I think I still need it explaining to me again.

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

I thought that was sensationally good - Moffat has written his Warriors' Gate there, I reckon. Yes, maybe it does mean that viewers have to watch until autumn to get a handle on what, exactly, is going on in the big picture. I can handle that. At its best Doctor Who can and should be the equal of those programmes that you buy the box set to understand fully. The great thing is that on its own 2*45 minute terms there was enough resolution of the major plot items to keep the kids first thrilled and then satisfied. And the big moments with the body scan and then the little girl at the end were massive enough to keep 11-year-old YMG thrilled with the possibilities, and 6-year-olf LMG thrilled at the whizz-bang "something big has just happened" part and the obvious and intelligible "Amy's in big trouble" stuff. And unqualified thumbs up from me - one of the 5 best stories since the return for my money.

Oh, and after last week's excesses, I crept upstairs and came back down again with a couple of dozen eyeliner tallymarks scrathced onto my face. This week it was YMG who completely freaked and took a bot of handholding. LMG just laughed. Then they all scampered upstairs to write all over their faces and they're all outside now playing Doctor Who.

[Wyatt Earp]

Who?

Loved it.

[Ray de Galles]

Who?

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:

And I must admit, I didn't really understand what it was the Silence wanted, nor how the Doctor actually mananged to defeat them. He put something in the transmission of the moon landing that ensured everyone on earth was released from their "spell"?

.

They weren't released from their spell, The Silence had been communicating subliminal messages to humans for millennia and now the message was "Kill us on sight".

A lot of the rest of it was half-explained or unexplained for me but I think that's mostly deliberate. Even in the confusion I loved it but found the veneer of 'X Files' around it a bit of an obvious attempt the break America.

Please let them kill off Rory, the fucking sap.

[David Agnew]

Who?

He won't kill of Rory. Rory is the fictionalised version of Moffat that is all geeky and sappy and written in such a way as to suggest that Moffat can really laugh at himself, but all the time is there to somehow impress the girlm and of course always end up with the girl [/Lawrence Miles]

But yeah, that was brilliant. It was nice to see something that not only stayed in it's own contianed world, and also avoided the paradox (which Moff's only managed twice so far). The x months later device was great, as it suggests that this Doctor is flawed and needs time to resolve things, rather than doing it all in 45 minutes (unlike his predecessor), although it would have been nice to have seen the previous cliffhanger resolved, rather than referenced later on.

The final bit with River Song (where she finds out that The Doctor hasn't kissed her before) at least rules out her being his wife in the future (and her suggestion that she was younger when they first met maybe even suggests that she'll be played by a younger actress next time)

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:

So please reassure me I'm not just being thick then, the whole "astronaut 'kills' future Doctor - little girl turns up an astronaut suit - Amy Pond thinks she's pregnant then finds a picture of herself cradling a little girl - girl appears at the very end and apparently does the "Doctor regeneration" bit at the end - wasn't explained tonight, was it?

No, it wasn't.

Purves Grundy wrote:

Then they all scampered upstairs to write all over their faces and they're all outside now playing Doctor Who.

Which is the sign of a great episode.

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

David Agnew wrote:

He won't kill of Rory. Rory is the fictionalised version of Moffat that is all geeky and sappy and written in such a way as to suggest that Moffat can really laugh at himself, but all the time is there to somehow impress the girlm and of course always end up with the girl [/Lawrence Miles]

It's funny beause it's true.

[jason voorhees]

Who?

When I looked at this thread, the replies was at 1333 and the views were at 133313.

So do the numbers 1 and 3 figure prominently in this story ? (Most Retarded Question Of All Time)

[Taylor]

Who?

David Agnew wrote:

He won't kill of Rory. Rory is the fictionalised version of Moffat that is all geeky and sappy and written in such a way as to suggest that Moffat can really laugh at himself, but all the time is there to somehow impress the girlm and of course always end up with the girl [/Lawrence Miles]

Thing is, I get the impression that like most self-consciously geeky/sappy people who have the last laugh, Moffat has a bit of a nasty streak in him, like he's taking his revenge on the world, it's his turn to be the king, etc etc. Not that he's a cunt or anything (he's clearly nothing of the sort, as PG can verify) but... I dunno, I bet he can turn sometimes. Possibly a good thing for this kind of writer, mind.

Anyway, definitely thought this episode was weighted too heavily towards the "tune in next week... and every other week until the end of the series" stuff, without resolving its own story very satisfactorily, but I did like the bit at the end with the regenerating little girl. At least two or three obvious explanations suggest themselves, from the clutter of unexplained stuff in the story, but I suspect the final answer won't even be that simple. Don't get me wrong, I really love this kind of stuff (when it's done well, which isn't always in "Doctor Who"), it's just a bit crap to ladle it on so thick when the current story, the one we've been following for a fortnight, just ends with a stupid shoot-em-up as though it's not really important.

I mean I know that probably isn't the end of the story... but that just underlines the point, doesn't it?

[Purves Grundy]

Who?

Not sure I can necessarily verify it, Taylor. I mean, to play Devil's Advocate here, he was pleasant enough to my face, as well as when I was exchanging emails with him 18 (christ!) years ago on rec.arts.drwho. Thing is, on both those occasions I was flattering him. Once about Press Gang, another time about Press Gang, Coupling and Dr Who. He's not famous enough for that sort of thing to have become a nuisance, so he was bound to respond well. And an unkind reading of him writing about it in DWM after could just have been him boasting about how famous he's become.

I mean, reading between the lines of Mad Larry's rantings, it's clear that Moff has displayed a degree of (justifiable) cruelty in his direction. And several of his Coupling scripts could only have been written by someone with a sizeable reserve of malice to draw on (open goal...)

Anyway, it's funny how the new format of the series has changed expectations. Back in the day 4 weeks was the minimum we'd expect to wait for a story to get resolved. Often a hell of a lot more. I mean, like it or not (I didn't), the whole story arc of Ace's origins and character development took over two years to play out. I think what's going on here is something similar but far better executed, but artistically and mechanically.

[Mumpo]

Who?

Perhaps Larry's best ever post.