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    #26
    1975 European Cup final

    "We were like a little mongrel walking along the street: everyone says hello to him but nobody wants to take him in".

    No you weren't. You were like a giant snarling Rotweiller that everyone wanted putting down.

    If there is one area of football to which I will not entertain a revisionist view it's Revie-era Leeds - easily the most cynical team I've ever encountered. Just a couple of hat-pins short of 1969/70 Estudiantes (who I didn't encounter, thankfully).

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      #27
      1975 European Cup final

      My memory of the disallowed goal is that Bremner was pushed into an offisde position by a Bayern player while challenging for an aerial ball
      The English commentator shared my initial suspicion that it was a Leeds player who bumped Bremner into offside.

      I must say, all I remembered from that game was the Leeds fans and flying stadium fittings.

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        #28
        1975 European Cup final

        Leeds were banned for the next three seasons they qualified for European football for that Paris riot, which (because Leeds went straight downhill for the next 15 years and didn't "qualify" anyway) everyone forgot all about, but then created a minor bit of embarrassment when it was pointed out that, actually, that ban was still meant to stand when they won the League title in 1992 and were meant to represent England in the Champions League the following season.

        A lot of behind-the-scenes politicking got them back in for that season that eventually involved the replayed game against Stuttgart.

        Other English club European bans of the time that are conveniently forgotten by the modern press include Man United's 200-mile home ban for ties in 1977-78, after their fans had rioted against St. Etienne, which led to them playing a Cup-Winners' Cup tie in Plymouth, and West Ham's "closed-doors" home tie in their 1980-81 CWC run.

        An awful lot of English club bans led up to the culmination of the all-out 5-season ban that followed Liverpool's disgrace at Heysel.

        Comment


          #29
          1975 European Cup final

          Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote:
          Leeds were banned for the next three seasons they qualified for European football for that Paris riot, which (because Leeds went straight downhill for the next 15 years and didn't "qualify" anyway) everyone forgot all about, but then created a minor bit of embarrassment when it was pointed out that, actually, that ban was still meant to stand when they won the League title in 1992 and were meant to represent England in the Champions League the following season.

          A lot of behind-the-scenes politicking got them back in for that season that eventually involved the replayed game against Stuttgart.
          Interesting but overlooks the fact that Leeds played in the UEFA Cup in 1979/80, going out to Uni Craiova of Romania in a tie which did not boost the popularity of Jimmy Adamson. I think the ban from 1975 was a) reduced on appeal and b) was time limited, i.e. Leeds were banned for the next so many years regardless of whether or not they actually qualified. Not sure of the exact details mind.

          Comment


            #30
            1975 European Cup final

            Ah, I must be misremembering the stuff about their entry in 1992-93, then (I'd certainly forgotten them being in Europe in 1979, until you picked up on it). Maybe they weren't banned for a number of years altogether, but it was something to do with a number of games they couldn't play at Elland Road? (Their 79-80 campaign consisted of a first round game against Valetta from Malta and then the game they lost against Craiova : were those games at Elland Road?). I definitely remember some kind of "hangover" from that original 1975 ban being a topic of discussion in 1992, when they won the League. Maybe it was a ban from the Champion's Cup, not from either of the "lesser" competitions, something like that?

            As with a number of my posts, I should have prefaced my 20:44 one with "As I recall..."

            Comment


              #31
              1975 European Cup final

              Would be interesting to find out. No doubt it was a typical UEFA masterpiece of clarity.

              I think the 1979 games were at Elland Road though about the only notable thing in that cup 'run' was that John Lukic made his debut in one of the games. And from this surprising piece of footage, we see that the away leg against Craiova appears to have been played in about 1962.

              http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bhH9bJ16fd0

              Comment


                #32
                1975 European Cup final

                Leeds did indeed beat FC Valletta 3-0 at Elland Road on 3 October 1979. Lukic played in that game. David Harvey was Leeds' keeper in the away leg, in which Arthur Graham, briefly of Man United a few years later, scored a hat-trick.

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                  #33
                  1975 European Cup final

                  I love how in that Craiova clip the man felled for the penalty just lays there while absolutely nobody goes over and sees if he's OK, except for the guy who goes over, halfheartedly lifts him and then gives him a kiss.

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                    #34
                    1975 European Cup final

                    Great commentary, too. Evidently done from the inside of a skip 200 miles away and, as already pointed out, in 1962.

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                      #35
                      1975 European Cup final

                      Central Rain wrote:
                      The disallowed goal is an awkward one as you only get to see it from one angle but I would say at least that if Bremner was interfering with play then he was interfering a hell of a lot less than Colin Suggett in 1971.
                      Lord Mauleverer wrote:
                      Having said that, I think it would rank only 3rd on the list of highway robberies perpetrated against the mighty Revie-built side. The silver medal goes to AC Milan for bribing the referee in advance of the 1973 ECWC final, and the gold medal goes to Arsenal, for profiting in their so-called "double" season from the worst ever allowance of an offside goal in the end of season Leeds-WBA fixture
                      Two points:

                      1) Interfering with play didn't exist in those days. If you were in an offside position, you were offside.

                      2) Suggest was in an offside position (which is why the linesman flagged, but as Brown played the ball forward and carried on running, the referee had to wait to see who played the ball next, and Brown did. You cannot be offside by passing the ball to yourself. And Astle is behind play when Brown squares the ball for the goal.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        1975 European Cup final

                        The pic Vennegoor posted at 17:50 yesterday is the most European-football-in-the-Seventies thing I have ever seen.

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                          #37
                          1975 European Cup final

                          I'd imagine it was probably taken in the 1980s though, given that Happel looks even more fucked than he did during the 1983 final.

                          I wonder what brand of smokes he is puffing on. Winston? Senior Service?

                          Comment


                            #38
                            1975 European Cup final

                            Phoebe wrote:

                            Two points:

                            1) Interfering with play didn't exist in those days. If you were in an offside position, you were offside.

                            2) Suggest was in an offside position (which is why the linesman flagged, but as Brown played the ball forward and carried on running, the referee had to wait to see who played the ball next, and Brown did. You cannot be offside by passing the ball to yourself. And Astle is behind play when Brown squares the ball for the goal.[/quote]

                            I think point 1 is simply wrong and "interfering with play" has been a part of the offside rule for a long time, although its definition has been clarified.

                            In any case, your point 2 seems to contradict what you have said in point 1. Nobody is suggesting that Tony Brown or Jeff Astle were offside. Suggett, as you have stated, was in an offside position. There is nothing in the offside rule saying that the ball has to be passed, only that it has to be 'played' by a member of the attacking side. Consequently, the fact that Brown 'plays' and then chases the ball himself is irrelevant - Suggett is in an offside position at the moment the ball is played by a member of his side. The only way that would not matter is if he was not considered to be interfering with play, which would of course require the offside rule to contain a reference to "interfering with play". The suggestion that the referee had to wait to see who played the ball next not only assumes the existence of such a clause, but is more pertinent to the modern full-blown 'active play' definition of offside.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              1975 European Cup final

                              I think point 1 is simply wrong

                              Nah, I remember when Wim Kieft scored that fluke goal to knock Ireland out of Euro 88, there was much outrage over the fact that Marco van Basten was running back from an offside position at the time. Van Basten was near to Packie Bonner but not in his direct line of sight. Under today's rules he would have been deemed okay, but back then he was considered offside.

                              But in any case, the bastard linesman didn't put up his flag, and the Dutch went through to the semi-finals.

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                                #40
                                1975 European Cup final

                                That was our tournament god damn it.

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                                  #41
                                  1975 European Cup final

                                  Yes but my point was that the definition of interfering with play has been modified in recent years in order to promote attacking play. This doesn't mean that 'interfering with play' is a completely new concept.

                                  According to this article, interfering with play has been a feature of the offside law since the early 20th century.

                                  http://www.corshamref.org.uk/offhist.htm

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                                    #42
                                    1975 European Cup final

                                    In the Leeds goal case, Bremner (in offside) was bumbling around just in front of Maier. Even if there was the notion of interfering with play — and the commentator did wonder whether Bremner's position did or didn't give Leeds an advantage, so some rule must have been in force — one could argue that Bremner might have interfered with Maier's view.

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                                      #43
                                      1975 European Cup final

                                      Central Rain wrote:
                                      There is nothing in the offside rule saying that the ball has to be passed, only that it has to be 'played' by a member of the attacking side. Consequently, the fact that Brown 'plays' and then chases the ball himself is irrelevant - Suggett is in an offside position at the moment the ball is played by a member of his side.
                                      By played it means passed, headed, propelled towards a teammate, or a shot. It is not offside if you pass to yourself. Never has been, and I fell confident in saying that it never will be, unless FIFA want to ban dribbling.

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                                        #44
                                        1975 European Cup final

                                        Just as Clive Woodward and Bill Sweetenham have transformed rugby union and swimming
                                        How the fuckety fuck do you transform swimming? You fall in the water and you either drown, or you don't. It isn't very complicated.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          1975 European Cup final

                                          Phoebe wrote:
                                          Central Rain wrote:
                                          There is nothing in the offside rule saying that the ball has to be passed, only that it has to be 'played' by a member of the attacking side. Consequently, the fact that Brown 'plays' and then chases the ball himself is irrelevant - Suggett is in an offside position at the moment the ball is played by a member of his side.
                                          By played it means passed, headed, propelled towards a teammate, or a shot. It is not offside if you pass to yourself. Never has been, and I fell confident in saying that it never will be, unless FIFA want to ban dribbling.
                                          I don't claim to be an expert on the Laws of the Game so if you can find me some official definition of 'playing the ball' that follows those lines I would be happy to look at it. However, the way I interpret this particular incident is that Suggett is offside from the moment Tony Brown kicks the ball (and I don't think you could describe his first touch as 'dribbling'). The linesman would put his flag up at that instance - he would not wait to see whether Brown was the next player to touch it again. The referee does not call the offside because he decides, rightly or wrongly, that Suggett is not interfering with play. The reason offsides are not given when players pass to themselves or dribble the ball is because it is much easier to make the case that other players are not interfering with play.

                                          This is why I suggested that your points contradicted each other - your point about why Suggett can be ignored by the referee does not make any sense unless the Law contains some reference to a concept of interfering with play.

                                          Anyway, as this tangent is giving me a headache I think we should instead sit back and look at these clips of Bayern's 3rd Cup against St Etienne.

                                          http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x31uvl_stetienne-bayern-1976_sport

                                          http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ts15_saint-etienne-bayern-de-munich-1976_extreme

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            1975 European Cup final

                                            Nogoalsnoglory wrote:
                                            Just as Clive Woodward and Bill Sweetenham have transformed rugby union and swimming
                                            How the fuckety fuck do you transform swimming? You fall in the water and you either drown, or you don't. It isn't very complicated.
                                            You take the right sort of drugs before you jump in.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              1975 European Cup final

                                              He'd only have "played" the ball if someone else had been the next one to touch it. I remember loads of instances of players knocking the ball through an advancing defence and chasing it down himself, which of course would never ever have been offside under any interpretation of the law. It would be ridiculous if it were. The flag goes up to alert the ref to the fact that there is a player in an offside position, but as soon as it is clear that the person who last kicked the ball is the next person to play it, the ref rightly and always (unless he fucks up) allows play to continue. I don't really know what you're arguing here, to be honest

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                1975 European Cup final

                                                ad hoc wrote:
                                                He'd only have "played" the ball if someone else had been the next one to touch it. I remember loads of instances of players knocking the ball through an advancing defence and chasing it down himself, which of course would never ever have been offside under any interpretation of the law. It would be ridiculous if it were. The flag goes up to alert the ref to the fact that there is a player in an offside position, but as soon as it is clear that the person who last kicked the ball is the next person to play it, the ref rightly and always (unless he fucks up) allows play to continue. I don't really know what you're arguing here, to be honest
                                                The point is that you ignore the guy stood in an offside position because he is not interfering with play. Phoebe's first point claimed that there was no such thing as interfering with play in 1971 but then his second point was pretty much a definition of interfering with play.

                                                Interfering with play WAS a feature of the Laws in 1971. However, it was not precisely defined. The recent adjustments to the offside law have given referees clear guidance as to what exactly constitutes interfering with play. Under the modern interpretation, Tinkler's decision would have been absolutely correct. In 1971 more was left to the referee's own understanding which is why this was so controversial.

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                                                  #49
                                                  1975 European Cup final

                                                  No but the interfering (or not) with play didn't come into it because the ball wasn't passed. One man knocked it forward and then he was the next one to touch it. Effectively he was dribbling the ball. Whether or not the offside law included a clause about interfering with play is utterly irrelevant, because when someone is dribbling the ball the offside law is never (and has never been) invoked.

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                                                    #50
                                                    1975 European Cup final

                                                    Interfering with play does come into it. The extract of the current laws dealing with an offside offence reads as follows (from the FIFA website):

                                                    "A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
                                                    • interfering with play or
                                                    • interfering with an opponent or
                                                    • gaining an advantage by being in that position"

                                                    There is absolutely no mention of an exemption for players dribbling in the current laws and as far as I am able to tell it has never been specified in earlier versions.

                                                    It is much more simple than that. The ball "touches or is played by" player A. Player B is stood in an offside position. The referee asks himself "is player B active?" (or interfering with play/gaining an advantage). If the answer is 'no' then the offside player is not penalised.

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