Okay, I'm officially old now

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

The debate about Glastonbury, and who's headlining it.

Noel Gallacher (now I've heard of him) has said that they shouldn't have been surprised not to have sold out the tickets for the festival, because someone called "Jay-Z" is apparently headlining it this year.

Now I listen to Radio One every day on the way into work, but who the fucking hell is "Jay-Z"?

[WOM]

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One of the young guys here was talking about paying $125 to see Jay-Z at the Air Canada Centre last week. I said something like "Sold out fast, did it?" 'Yeah...should be a good time." he replied, before I casually turned to someone else and said "Who the fuck's Jay-Z?"

[Purves Grundy]

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Beyonce's squeeze, innit?

He's one of those blokes who as far as I can tell made a couple of huge selling albums as performer and producer a nd now gets paid squillions to contribute the occasional "yeah" as "feat. Jay-Z" on othe people's records. A bit like politicians and businessmen getting to teh point where they get gifted non-executive directorships on other people's boards.

He's also got a clothing range worth gazillions too, IIRC. I certainly couldn't identify a track of his in a pepsi-challenge type setup.

I vaguely remember a bootleg of his called "The Grey Album" a few years ago which was remixes of the Beatles' White Album, or something. Caused a minor kerfuffle and also something of a palaver, I believe.

[WOM]

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Okay.

[diggedy derek]

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I'm quite surprised people haven't at least heard of Jay-Z.

He's the most successful rapper of the last ten years. He's released several mega selling albums, the first couple of them were pretty good, although his rapping became very pro forma later. He's made at least a couple of well publicised "comebacks" after "retiring", which are PR stunts but do give you sense of his stature.

He also owns a large portion of the New York Nets, I think, and was president of Def Jam, which I'd guess might be the largest black music label in the world.

[diggedy derek]

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Although his lyrics are all about money, on a formal level he's got a certain poetry:

green like spinach pop wines that's vintage
It's a lot of big money in my sentence

[Carcass]

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I'm a fan of 'The Black Album', 'The Blueprint' and 'The Kingdom'. Although 'Hard knock Life' can go and fuck off.

'99 Problems' pretty much sums up all that's ace and shit about him in one song. It's exciting, it's heavy, it's catchy, the lyrics and the production are super dope.

It's as knuckleheaded as fuck.

[Reed John]

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I once rode an elevator with Jay-Z in an Orlando Hotel. I wasn't sure it was him, because at the time he was only starting to become famous, but I'm sure it was.

[WOM]

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dd: I've definitely heard of Jay-Z. I guess I've just become so exhausted with the staggering sameness of Rap/Hip Hop artists that I've successfully blocked them out. The whole gangsta/money/bitches/cars/guns/bling thing has been so wrung dry that it amazes me it's still going on. Granted, that's an 'ignorant outsider's' point of view, but I really don't get the attraction of the genre.

[Taylor]

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The unacceptable face of "black capitalism". A fairly decent rapper, massive star. I'm also astonished that people haven't at least heard of him.

I was never a fan, because the actual sound of his records was a bit slick and shit, but "The Grey Album" (the bootleg where the rapping from his "Black Album" was plastered over cut-ups of The Beatles' "White Album") opened my eyes to his skills. Still can't be bothered with his more recent stuff, as like most people he's got dead lazy since becoming a millionaire. And being a millionaire is pretty much all he raps about now, in that horrible "I am considerably richer than you" kind of way.

Still, the fact that Glastonbury can't sell tickets because he happens to be on the bill is very telling. I've always said that, to its devotees, the true appeal of indie music is that it's a subculture where everything remains exactly the same, and here's the proof: no different from the days when the music papers would put a black face on the front cover and lose twenty thousand sales at a stroke, whoever it was, whatever else was inside. Damn English middle classes, never get sick of being sick of them.

[WOM]

Okay, I'm officially old now

Reed, he probably wasn't sure if it was you either, or he'd have said something.

[WOM]

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Taylor, given the description that's been provided by you and the others (uber-successful, highly-polished, mega-millionaire), how on earth would he be a good addition to an indie music festival's bill?

[Reed John]

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I've not heard the Grey Album, but everything I have heard of his struck me as a bit slick and dull. Actually, most hip hop strikes me as very dull and unoriginal and I don't see the appeal of his clothing range, or any of the clothing ranges designed by rappers. Its always garish and sort of ugly, I think. I certainly don't understand the glorification of ostentatious wealth that seems to have infected that genre/culture.

I guess I just don't like hip hop. The only hip hop I do like is stuff with a pronounced rock influence like Beastie Boys, old Run DMC, PE. NWA did some good stuff too. Straight out of Compton has a fantastic beat - but their whole glorification of street gangs is disgusting. Its worse in light of Ice Cube's total Hollywood sell-out. It makes me think it was all just a pose all along.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

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I don't know very much about him, but at least he's not Kanye fucking west. I can't stand that cunt

[WOM]

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They say he's mediocre. Heh.

But I will forever respect him for "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

[Nico Rijnders]

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WornOldMotorbike wrote:

how on earth would he be a good addition to an indie music festival's bill?

Glastonbury isn't meant to be, and generally isn't, an indie music festival. It's been becoming more of one of late though. I guess they've at least partly done this on purpose to try and shake that off; there was a fair amount of talk after the last festival that it had gotten a bit staid and wasn't attracting enough of the kids.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Okay, I'm officially old now

They say he's mediocre.

That is my favourite OTF post. Certainly of the last 18 months.

But I will forever respect him for "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

you see, I should like him too for that, but he's just too fucking annoying. and anyone who thinks that slowing down "move on up" while shouting over it is a good idea knows fuck all about music.

[Gyuri]

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He's the most successful rapper of the last ten years.

To follow up on DD's point, Jay-Z recently signed a $150 mm deal with Live Nation (concert promoter). That's not bad change for any musician, rapper or otherwise.

I certainly don't understand the glorification of ostentatious wealth that seems to have infected that genre/culture.

It's worth pointing out that glorifying ostentatious wealth is an American (if not universal) thing, not just a hip hop thing. A good number of the magazines that you see at grocery store check-out counters do little but glorify ostentatious wealth (Brangelina's Million-Dollar Wedding!!! J-Lo's Luxury Vacation!!! Paris Hilton Wiping Her Ass With $100 Dollar Bills!!! etc., ad infinitum), to say nothing of US tax policy.

Further, not all US hip hop is like this. Even ignoring the mid-90's, jazz/soul-rap groups like Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, The Fugees, etc., you have quasi-mainstream rappers now like Mos Def, The Roots, Common (and anybody else that appeared in Dave Chappelle's Block Party).

What I'm trying to say is that judging hip hop by Jay-Z and 50 Cent is like judging rock by Daughtry or Nickelback (the musicians with the top selling rock albums in 2007).

[matt j]

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Who/What the hell is Daughtry?

[Gyuri]

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Matej,

Better not to ask. . .though if you really want to know, he was the "rocker" on one of the seasons of American Idol who has become unaccountably successful.

[G-Man]

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This is an excellent thread so far, with fine contributions by Taylor, Gyuri and Carcass especially.

The latter's summary of "99 Problems" is one of the most spot-on things I've read on this board.

I can't do with the dissing of Kanye West though. By no stretch of the imagination am I a fan, and he can be annoying as hell. But as a hip hop artiste he is among the better of the mainstream lot. If one wants to direct hatred at Hip Hop gubbins, the natural starting point is located with the likes of Fabolous, The Game and "Fiddy". And, of course, Piddly Diddly, who shouldbe regarded as being to Hip Hop what Buck Fizz were to pop (except I think "Land Of Make Believe" is a great song, but can't think of anything meriting preservation from the canon of Mr Coombs).

Reed, the Grey Album is pretty cool, at least as an experiment. Rotherham fan, legal eagle and occasional OTFer Danger Mouse mashed it, I believe.

[Gyuri]

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Wait, is OTF's Danger Mouse the same Danger Mouse from Gnarls Barkley?

[Reed John]

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America has always been fascinated by wealth. Fitzgerald talked about the "cruel rich," which are still very much with us. But pop culture lately seems especially fascinated with the "vulgar rich."

These sorts of OTT gross shows of wealth seem to be prominent in a few sectors of pop culture - certain hip hop artists, heiresses/heirs, fashion models/designers, certain young Hollywood "starlets," reality-show people and the people on that awful "The Real Housewives Of..." show that really likes to flash it.

It just seems worse coming from hip hop artists because hip hop has traditionally been the voice of "The Streets" and overlooked minority youth.

By contrast, many rich and famous actors, like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp and Ashton Kutcher, usually look a bit scruffy and hobo-ish.

And rock doesn't have much glam in it these days. You don't expect to see U2 showing up to a club in a limo with lots of gold chains, unless they're doing a highly ironic, self-referential, irreverant, post-modern "pose" that the critics will laud them for.

To be clear, my disdain for the "ostentatious wealth" genre of hip-hop is seperate from may lack of interest in hip-hop in general, although there is some overlap.

I don't really like the stuff I've seen on Chappelle Show. I don't really dislike it either. It just doesn't grab me. But I recognize that it's way better than the shit that usually gets played at frat parties.

[Gyuri]

Okay, I'm officially old now

And rock doesn't have much glam in it these days. You don't expect to see U2 showing up to a club in a limo with lots of gold chains, unless they're doing a highly ironic, self-referential, irreverant, post-modern "pose" that the critics will laud them for.

Well, modern rock doesn't really have much glamour these days, either. The biggest touring rock bands today are U2 and The Rolling Stones, who I don't think are a fair representation of "rock" at this moment in time. They are much more likely to show up on classic rock stations than on modern rock radio.

It just seems worse coming from hip hop artists because hip hop has traditionally been the voice of "The Streets" and overlooked minority youth.

But hip hop as the voice of "The Streets" was often represented by gangsta rap, which, as you mentioned upthread, was problematic for many. Also, second-wave gangsta rap (Dre post-NWA, Snoop Dogg) was often as much about gaining ostentatious wealth as anything else. Boogie Down Productions and Public Enemy were, I think, more of the exception than the rule.

By the way, hip hop is still the voice of "The Streets."

[Bored Of Education]

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Seems to me that he is only doing the same ostentatious flouting of wealth and capitalism as white rock bands have been doing for decades.

Saying that hip-hop is all about guns & bling is like saying that all heavy metal is about Satan or all Chinese food is shit.